Member
Nashville, TN
I like the discussion that is coming from this thread, especially the proof sources Marko is mentioning. A couple of points. First, uncovering the truth about the Eastern Front is difficult with some level of disagreement on most topics. Also, I think we all need to recognize that we are targeting what happened most of the time as there were so many people involved.
I'll share a great resource no cost resource for anyone wanting to add to the conversation.
https://forum.axishistory.com/
I can't point to a proof source, though I believe most scholars consider 'The Stalingrad Protocols' to be the gold standard for history on Stalingrad. I remember looking and looking, then hoping and hoping for an English translation and was thankful when I learned it was published in English under the name I listed above.
This is a place where professional historians from around the world congregate to have conversations like this thread to get to the truth.
Having said all of that, I maintain that my comments thus far are the most accurate, especially relative to the battle for Stalingrad. Here are some points to support my comments:
Point from above: You can't trust Russian source documents. My comment: The historians I've studied took this into account.
Points from above: Stalin would kill anyone who opposed him. Another point was relative to the commissars attached to military units. Another point was that most soldiers were fighting out of fear about what Stalin would do to them rather than fighting out of patriotism and saving their country.
My comment: By and large, soldiers bought in to what the commissars were saying. They didn't have to force them to fight - most soldiers fought valiantly and were willing to sacrifice themselves. Remember that Stalin gave power to the Generals when he saw that they could loose the war. Part of that power was removing the ability for the commissars to have voice in military decisions.
Point from above: The movie "Enemy at the Gates"; battle for Okinawa. My comment: The movie is not a historically accurate regarding lack of arms. Even if it were, I don't consider sending men into battle with whatever is available in order to save your homeland as being harsh. By harsh, I mean threatening, etc...
We all owe a debt to soldiers fighting the pacific front. The Japanese fought to the death. Putting the eastern front into perspective relative to Okinawa, The Battle for Stalingrad was six months long. An average of about 12,000 soldiers died every day during that six months.
Proof Sources:
Roza Shanina, this young woman, whose picture is at the bottom of the post, fought very hard to be able to serve on the front lines. She was killed when she threw herself in front of an officer in order to save him. This type of action is due to fear. There are many stories like this.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/roza-shanina-1945/
Paragraph from a review of the book at the following link:
"Ultimately, Reese puts a human face on the often anonymous Soviet soldiers to show that their patriotism was real, even if not a direct endorsement of the Stalinist system, and had much to do with the Red Army's ability to defeat the most powerful army the world had ever seen."
https://kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-1776-0.html
Here is message from the commissars I'm referring to above, link below the referenced text.
"In 1941, the Soviet government raised the bloodied Red Army's esprit de corps with propaganda stressing the defense of Motherland and nation, employing historic exemplars of Russian courage and bravery against foreign aggressors."
"To encourage the initiative of Red Army commanders, the CPSU temporarily abolished political commissars, reintroduced formal military ranks and decorations, and introduced the Guards unit concept. Exceptionally heroic or high-performing units earned the Guards title (for example 1st Guards Special Rifle Corps, 6th Guards Tank Army),[52] an elite designation denoting superior training, materiel, and pay. Punishment also was used; slackers, malingerers, those avoiding combat with self-inflicted wounds[53] cowards, thieves, and deserters were disciplined with beatings, demotions, undesirable/dangerous duties, and summary execution by NKVD punitive detachments."
Note: My understanding is that commissars weren't abolished, but rather had their power curtailed. Also, several of you have noted, there was punishment as well. My point is that the punishment was not nearly as widespread as American's tend to believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army#S...World_War_("The_Great_Patriotic_War")
![[Image: 157355987_1453516246.jpg]](https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2016/21/157355987_1453516246.jpg)
I'll share a great resource no cost resource for anyone wanting to add to the conversation.
https://forum.axishistory.com/
I can't point to a proof source, though I believe most scholars consider 'The Stalingrad Protocols' to be the gold standard for history on Stalingrad. I remember looking and looking, then hoping and hoping for an English translation and was thankful when I learned it was published in English under the name I listed above.
This is a place where professional historians from around the world congregate to have conversations like this thread to get to the truth.
Having said all of that, I maintain that my comments thus far are the most accurate, especially relative to the battle for Stalingrad. Here are some points to support my comments:
Point from above: You can't trust Russian source documents. My comment: The historians I've studied took this into account.
Points from above: Stalin would kill anyone who opposed him. Another point was relative to the commissars attached to military units. Another point was that most soldiers were fighting out of fear about what Stalin would do to them rather than fighting out of patriotism and saving their country.
My comment: By and large, soldiers bought in to what the commissars were saying. They didn't have to force them to fight - most soldiers fought valiantly and were willing to sacrifice themselves. Remember that Stalin gave power to the Generals when he saw that they could loose the war. Part of that power was removing the ability for the commissars to have voice in military decisions.
Point from above: The movie "Enemy at the Gates"; battle for Okinawa. My comment: The movie is not a historically accurate regarding lack of arms. Even if it were, I don't consider sending men into battle with whatever is available in order to save your homeland as being harsh. By harsh, I mean threatening, etc...
We all owe a debt to soldiers fighting the pacific front. The Japanese fought to the death. Putting the eastern front into perspective relative to Okinawa, The Battle for Stalingrad was six months long. An average of about 12,000 soldiers died every day during that six months.
Proof Sources:
Roza Shanina, this young woman, whose picture is at the bottom of the post, fought very hard to be able to serve on the front lines. She was killed when she threw herself in front of an officer in order to save him. This type of action is due to fear. There are many stories like this.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/roza-shanina-1945/
Paragraph from a review of the book at the following link:
"Ultimately, Reese puts a human face on the often anonymous Soviet soldiers to show that their patriotism was real, even if not a direct endorsement of the Stalinist system, and had much to do with the Red Army's ability to defeat the most powerful army the world had ever seen."
https://kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-1776-0.html
Here is message from the commissars I'm referring to above, link below the referenced text.
"In 1941, the Soviet government raised the bloodied Red Army's esprit de corps with propaganda stressing the defense of Motherland and nation, employing historic exemplars of Russian courage and bravery against foreign aggressors."
"To encourage the initiative of Red Army commanders, the CPSU temporarily abolished political commissars, reintroduced formal military ranks and decorations, and introduced the Guards unit concept. Exceptionally heroic or high-performing units earned the Guards title (for example 1st Guards Special Rifle Corps, 6th Guards Tank Army),[52] an elite designation denoting superior training, materiel, and pay. Punishment also was used; slackers, malingerers, those avoiding combat with self-inflicted wounds[53] cowards, thieves, and deserters were disciplined with beatings, demotions, undesirable/dangerous duties, and summary execution by NKVD punitive detachments."
Note: My understanding is that commissars weren't abolished, but rather had their power curtailed. Also, several of you have noted, there was punishment as well. My point is that the punishment was not nearly as widespread as American's tend to believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army#S...World_War_("The_Great_Patriotic_War")
