WW2 Trivia

I like the discussion that is coming from this thread, especially the proof sources Marko is mentioning.  A couple of points.  First, uncovering the truth about the Eastern Front is difficult with some level of disagreement on most topics.  Also, I think we all need to recognize that we are targeting what happened most of the time as there were so many people involved.

I'll share a great resource no cost resource for anyone wanting to add to the conversation.  

https://forum.axishistory.com/

I can't point to a proof source, though I believe most scholars consider 'The Stalingrad Protocols' to be the gold standard for history on Stalingrad.  I remember looking and looking, then hoping and hoping for an English translation and was thankful when I learned it was published in English under the name I listed above.

This is a place where professional historians from around the world congregate to have conversations like this thread to get to the truth.

Having said all of that, I maintain that my comments thus far are the most accurate, especially relative to the battle for Stalingrad.  Here are some points to support my comments:

Point from above:  You can't trust Russian source documents.  My comment:  The historians I've studied took this into account.

Points from above:  Stalin would kill anyone who opposed him. Another point was relative to the commissars attached to military units.  Another point was that most soldiers were fighting out of fear about what Stalin would do to them rather than fighting out of patriotism and saving their country.  

My comment:  By and large, soldiers bought in to what the commissars were saying.  They didn't have to force them to fight - most soldiers fought valiantly and were willing to sacrifice themselves.    Remember that Stalin gave power to the Generals when he saw that they could loose the war. Part of that power was removing the ability for the commissars to have voice in military decisions.  

Point from above:  The movie "Enemy at the Gates"; battle for Okinawa.  My comment:  The movie is not a historically accurate regarding lack of arms.  Even if it were, I don't consider sending men into battle with whatever is available in order to save your homeland as being harsh.  By harsh, I mean threatening, etc...

We all owe a debt to soldiers fighting the pacific front.  The Japanese fought to the death.  Putting the eastern front into perspective relative to Okinawa, The Battle for Stalingrad was six months long.  An average of about 12,000 soldiers died every day during that six months.  


Proof Sources:  

Roza Shanina, this young woman, whose picture is at the bottom of the post, fought very hard to be able to serve on the front lines.  She was killed when she threw herself in front of an officer in order to save him. This type of action is due to fear.   There are many stories like this.  

https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/roza-shanina-1945/


Paragraph from a review of the book at the following link:

"Ultimately, Reese puts a human face on the often anonymous Soviet soldiers to show that their patriotism was real, even if not a direct endorsement of the Stalinist system, and had much to do with the Red Army's ability to defeat the most powerful army the world had ever seen."

https://kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-1776-0.html

Here is message from the commissars I'm referring to above, link below the referenced text.

"In 1941, the Soviet government raised the bloodied Red Army's esprit de corps with propaganda stressing the defense of Motherland and nation, employing historic exemplars of Russian courage and bravery against foreign aggressors."

"To encourage the initiative of Red Army commanders, the CPSU temporarily abolished political commissars, reintroduced formal military ranks and decorations, and introduced the Guards unit concept. Exceptionally heroic or high-performing units earned the Guards title (for example 1st Guards Special Rifle Corps, 6th Guards Tank Army),[52] an elite designation denoting superior training, materiel, and pay. Punishment also was used; slackers, malingerers, those avoiding combat with self-inflicted wounds[53] cowards, thieves, and deserters were disciplined with beatings, demotions, undesirable/dangerous duties, and summary execution by NKVD punitive detachments."

Note:  My understanding is that commissars weren't abolished, but rather had their power curtailed.  Also, several of you have noted, there was punishment as well.  My point is that the punishment was not nearly as widespread as American's tend to believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army#S...World_War_("The_Great_Patriotic_War")

The Soviets were leaders as far as having women in combat roles. In addition to the snipers they also had the Nachthexen or Night Witches which were a group of all female Soviet aviators that flew at night using wood framed bi-planes to bomb German troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches

Yeah, those night witches caused quite a bit of trouble.

Thanks for the link to the Axis History site. Very interesting.

Never heard of the Night Witches but it is interesting stuff.

Never heard of the Night Witches but it is interesting stuff.

I don't think they called themselves that, the Germans coined the term Nachthexen because when they came in for their bombing run they'd shut off the engine so all you'd hear is the rushing wind apparently like a witch on a broomstick. They must have learned after shooting some down that they were women.

Here's a link with some info on the night witches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches

Here is a link with more info about the Russian lady snipers. Quite badass. Lyudmila Mykhailivna Pavlichenko took 309 Germans in 14 months. She then toured the United States, in her mid 20's, challenging every crowd to push for the D-Day Invasion to open a second front. "In Chicago, she stood before large crowds, chiding the men to support the second front. "Gentlemen," she said, "I am 25 years old and I have killed 309 fascist invaders by now. Don't you think, gentlemen, that you have been hiding behind my back for too long?" Her words settled on the crowd, then caused a surging roar of support.

Her age when doing this? mid 20's

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/8-red-ar...rld-war-ii

Marko , sounds like you really study WW2. Do you have special areas of interest? Do you have a Kindle book reader? If so, I would be happy to lend you my copy of The Stalingrad Protocols. I would love to get your take on the chapter where they delve into soldiers feeling free to say what they really thought.

Amazon has a movie about the night witches, but they call them the Night Swallows.

Edit: I just went back to it and I suspect that it is Russian as the spoken language with English subtitles. And I have a correction, it's not a movie but a TV show. I did put it onto my watchlist. Now that my curiosity is piqued I might watch it sooner rather than later, if I can tolerate the subtitles. I'm hoping it's in English for the audio.

Here's a link with some info on the night witches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches

Here is a link with more info about the Russian lady snipers.  Quite badass.  Lyudmila Mykhailivna Pavlichenko took 309 Germans in 14 months.  She then toured the United States, in her mid 20's, challenging every crowd to push for the D-Day Invasion to open a second front. "In Chicago, she stood before large crowds, chiding the men to support the second front. "Gentlemen," she said, "I am 25 years old and I have killed 309 fascist invaders by now. Don't you think, gentlemen, that you have been hiding behind my back for too long?" Her words settled on the crowd, then caused a surging roar of support.

Her age when doing this?  mid 20's

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/8-red-ar...rld-war-ii

Marko , sounds like you really study WW2.  Do you have special areas of interest?  Do you have a Kindle book reader?  If so, I would be happy to lend you my copy of The Stalingrad Protocols.   I would love to get your take on the chapter where they delve into soldiers feeling free to say what they really thought.

I've done a little reading over the years. I find it quite interesting having been born only 15 years after WWII ended I met and spoke with plenty of veterans and watched lots of movies. We used to play either cowboys and indians or war. Also married to a woman who is half German on her mother's side has added an extra layer in that my children's great grandfather was a German soldier who fought on the Eastern front. When things are hard for my kids I remind them that they are descended from hardy stock and they can get through whatever it is. Having fought on the Easter Front and been captured and survived wasn't for the faint of heart.

I appreciate the offer, thanks but I haven't switched to Kindle yet. I probably will in the next couple of years - scalable font seems useful.

OK, so I watched a few hours of Night Swallows. IMO it's mostly worthless. It's a Russian soap about ww2. It's in Russian but subtitled. There is a uber state/Stalin character who sees treason in everyone, pilots who do what they damn well please (under Stalin!??), and the love interests. Then there are the soldiers who sacrifice themselves for the motherland and to prove they aren't cowards. Lots of mood shots where everyone stands around crying or trying to think deep thoughts that do nothing to add to a plot. Anyway, it wasn't what I was hoping for, but I sort of figured out what it was going to be when I saw that it was "Season 1".