Rockwell model T

The Rex may have beat them to market and killed their chances. Why buy when it’s not stainless. Will it shave better than vintage Gillettes?


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We’ll just have to see how it shaves. I for one would have liked to see more manufacturers create adjustable TTO’s and it has been a long time coming.

Would have liked to see Parker convert their 96R black beauty clone into an adjustable.


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Nice seeing someone 1) admit their problems 2) specifically offer full refund.

The Model t is a razor - not a Tesla

Is it that hard to clone a Gillette Adjustable, pardon my ignorance.



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I could see Rockwell wanting no public reviews for early production/prototype razors.  Android P and new IOS are out for beta testing - I have not seen any comprehensive reviews of either software nor would I put much value in the negative comments of early beta testers.


PS; I got one excellent shave with a Rockwell blade one time.

Now hopefully it's actually built like a model T and will last like one! And still waiting like the rest.

All the more to respect the engineering that went into the Gillette Fat boy and Slim, Parker Variant, Merkur Progress and the Rex Ambassador.

Hopefully they resolve their issues at Rockwell. Looks like Weishi will beat them to the punch if they replicate are fairly inexpensive TTO adjustable that shaves well.


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I think the advantage that the Parthenon had was Weishi had the TTO experience and Qshave had the adjustable experience and both had experience pushing out thousands of razor every month. Now if they could only invest in making the razor look more normal. ;-)

Nice seeing someone 1) admit their problems 2) specifically offer full refund.

The Model t is a razor - not a Tesla

Is it that hard to clone a Gillette Adjustable, pardon my ignorance.



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YES.

There will NEVER be a razor made like a gillette adjustable again. Ever.

The process gillette used is called progressive stamping. Meaning sheets of brass were fed into long lines of machines that would progressively stamp the Parts.

By progressive I mean - if you want to make a curved silo door with two little legs and hinge holes in either side- you may have 8 dies / stamping procedures to do that. Each die today would cost something like $30,000.

So you can imagine the tooling alone for a fatboy May Be $1,000,000. Then you need all the material. Then you need to find a shop that has dozens of stamping machines and will set up a production run for you. You will blow through a few hundred parts just dialing it in. When you turn on the run, you better hope you have a quantity of 10,000 at least because below that quantity your tooling costs are too much of a barrier to entry.

The big advantage of progressive stamping is that the Parts are formed, not cast. Meaning they are stronger and more durable. They can be bent and bent back - not so with cast Parts. Try dropping your zamak razor part and watch it shatter like frozen ice. Drop a gillette stamped part and you can bend it back.

They are also 100% interchangeable. I can take a gillette part from 1957 and swap it with a part from 1962. That may sound like no big deal - try doing that with a Milled part from some boutique razor maker today. Chances are the parts can be slightly different. Not so with stamping - they are exact clones.

Metal injection molding today is one of the better technologies - feather and ikon use it and it’s great for getting complex shapes like guards done in stainless at a low per unit price. But again it’s just a fancy version of casting and the parts don’t have a metal grain to them and thus are still susceptible to cracking if too much stress is exerted.

This is one reason I love gillette razors - because the demand for DE was so big in the mid 1950’s - progressive stamping not only was the best technology it was also the only technology that could keep up with hundreds of thousands if not millions of razor handles needed. And because the most expensive thing is the set up and tooling, it made it possible for fatboys to cost $1.95 - today equivalent to $17.






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Nice seeing someone 1) admit their problems 2) specifically offer full refund.

The Model t is a razor - not a Tesla

Is it that hard to clone a Gillette Adjustable, pardon my ignorance.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

YES.

There will NEVER be a razor made like a gillette adjustable again. Ever.

The process gillette used is called progressive stamping. Meaning sheets of brass were fed into long lines of machines that would progressively stamp the Parts.

By progressive I mean - if you want to make a curved silo door with two little legs and hinge holes in either side- you may have 8 dies / stamping procedures to do that. Each die today would cost something like $30,000.

So you can imagine the tooling alone for a fatboy May Be $1,000,000. Then you need all the material. Then you need to find a shop that has dozens of stamping machines and will set up a production run for you. You will blow through a few hundred parts just dialing it in. When you turn on the run, you better hope you have a quantity of 10,000 at least because below that quantity your tooling costs are too much of a barrier to entry.

The big advantage of progressive stamping is that the Parts are formed, not cast. Meaning they are stronger and more durable. They can be bent and bent back - not so with cast Parts. Try dropping your zamak razor part and watch it shatter like frozen ice. Drop a gillette stamped part and you can bend it back.

They are also 100% interchangeable. I can take a gillette part from 1957 and swap it with a part from 1962. That may sound like no big deal - try doing that with a Milled part from some boutique razor maker today. Chances are the parts can be slightly different. Not so with stamping - they are exact clones.

Metal injection molding today is one of the better technologies - feather and ikon use it and it’s great for getting complex shapes like guards done in stainless at a low per unit price. But again it’s just a fancy version of casting and the parts don’t have a metal grain to them and thus are still susceptible to cracking if too much stress is exerted.

This is one reason I love gillette razors - because the demand for DE was so big in the mid 1950’s - progressive stamping not only was the best technology it was also the only technology that could keep up with hundreds of thousands if not millions of razor handles needed. And because the most expensive thing is the set up and tooling, it made it possible for fatboys to cost $1.95 - today equivalent to $17.






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Thanks for educating me Matt I feel less ignorant!

All the more reason that your Rex ambassador is a work of art and a fine peace of razor machinery!

Keep them coming!


Hopefully Rockwell solves their issues.

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Some industrial espionage is in order for Rockwell here, they should take hold of a Parthenon and take it apart. LOL

Some industrial espionage is in order for Rockwell here, they should take hold of a Parthenon and take it apart. LOL

They should have taken a look at how Weishi manufactured their razors even before they even started the project. I am sure they took apart a Gillette to study, but as Razor Emporium explained in detail about the older manufacturing process, Rockwell probably thought they could get the same results by applying modern small batch processing. I am pretty sure that Weishi probably invested in that progressive stamping thing a long time ago.

Nice seeing someone 1) admit their problems 2) specifically offer full refund.  

The Model t is a razor - not a Tesla

Is it that hard to clone a Gillette Adjustable, pardon my ignorance.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

YES.

There will NEVER be a razor made like a gillette adjustable again. Ever.

The process gillette used is called progressive stamping. Meaning sheets of brass were fed into long lines of machines that would progressively stamp the Parts.

By progressive I mean - if you want to make a curved silo door with two little legs and hinge holes in either side- you may have 8 dies / stamping procedures to do that. Each die today would cost something like $30,000.

So you can imagine the tooling alone for a fatboy May Be $1,000,000. Then you need all the material. Then you need to find a shop that has dozens of stamping machines and will set up a production run for you. You will blow through a few hundred parts just dialing it in. When you turn on the run, you better hope you have a quantity of 10,000 at least because below that quantity your tooling costs are too much of a barrier to entry.

The big advantage of progressive stamping is that the Parts are formed, not cast. Meaning they are stronger and more durable. They can be bent and bent back - not so with cast Parts. Try dropping your zamak razor part and watch it shatter like frozen ice. Drop a gillette stamped part and you can bend it back.

They are also 100% interchangeable. I can take a gillette part from 1957 and swap it with a part from 1962. That may sound like no big deal - try doing that with a Milled part from some boutique razor maker today. Chances are the parts can be slightly different. Not so with stamping - they are exact clones.

Metal injection molding today is one of the better technologies - feather and ikon use it and it’s great for getting complex shapes like guards done in stainless at a low per unit price. But again it’s just a fancy version of casting and the parts don’t have a metal grain to them and thus are still susceptible to cracking if too much stress is exerted.

This is one reason I love gillette razors - because the demand for DE was so big in the mid 1950’s - progressive stamping not only was the best technology it was also the only technology that could keep up with hundreds of thousands if not millions of razor handles needed. And because the most expensive thing is the set up and tooling, it made it possible for fatboys to cost $1.95 - today equivalent to $17.

This is some amazing knowledge sharing and perhaps a rare insight on how Gillette made its razors. Like today, back in the day when Gillette like today was towering over  other competitors and  had the money power to spend so much on R&D and also have enough sales to make a huge profits in the investmwnt.
My respect for Matt's knowledge as an authority on stuff wet shaving  has grown tremendously !
Also I am impressed to see Matt coming in to a thread of a competition product which is really struggling and taking a stand to answer questions on why it is indeed such a hard task to make a Gillette clone . Instead of just keeping quiet which he could have and let the credibility of Rockwell tumble down still in this thread and perhaps made many in this thread lean towards his product - he chose to come in as a true professional who has experience of making a complex razor and having his Share of upsets and improvements.

I really am all  respect for Matt being a fine gentleman and a true professional. I will be glad to have bought the Rex ambassador which is his craftsmanship z knowing he took a stand which he could have avoided completely.

Some industrial espionage is in order for Rockwell here, they should take hold of a Parthenon and take it apart. LOL

I am skeptical about qshave taking the money before making the razor. They are in the business too long and have made pretty good clones of a complex tool like the futur. Parker has made the variant a clone of the progress and RE has made the  Rex Ambassador without taking any money.

I think they just jumped on to the Kickstarter to take the money even if they wouldn't have the need for it as they would have seen that Kickstarter razor campaigns get many wet shavers excited to commit money and hence add more volume to the numbers before the razor is even made. I think they're disappointed to see that the Merkur futur clone did not set the market the fire even at that price point hence using a Kickstarter would perhaps gather much more momentum at a higher price point.

Chinese manufactures have seen the wet Shaving market potential for high margin products and are no longer content to merely be low price OEM suppliers to USA and European vendors who brand and mark up their products with a large margin..I think players like Yaqi and qshave want to step up their game and cut out their OEM low price low profit model and market their brand at almost equal price points as the established competition.

Just my two cents...

Is it that hard to clone a Gillette Adjustable, pardon my ignorance.



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YES.

There will NEVER be a razor made like a gillette adjustable again. Ever.

The process gillette used is called progressive stamping. Meaning sheets of brass were fed into long lines of machines that would progressively stamp the Parts.

By progressive I mean - if you want to make a curved silo door with two little legs and hinge holes in either side- you may have 8 dies / stamping procedures to do that. Each die today would cost something like $30,000.

So you can imagine the tooling alone for a fatboy May Be $1,000,000. Then you need all the material. Then you need to find a shop that has dozens of stamping machines and will set up a production run for you. You will blow through a few hundred parts just dialing it in. When you turn on the run, you better hope you have a quantity of 10,000 at least because below that quantity your tooling costs are too much of a barrier to entry.

The big advantage of progressive stamping is that the Parts are formed, not cast. Meaning they are stronger and more durable. They can be bent and bent back - not so with cast Parts. Try dropping your zamak razor part and watch it shatter like frozen ice. Drop a gillette stamped part and you can bend it back.

They are also 100% interchangeable. I can take a gillette part from 1957 and swap it with a part from 1962. That may sound like no big deal - try doing that with a Milled part from some boutique razor maker today. Chances are the parts can be slightly different. Not so with stamping - they are exact clones.

Metal injection molding today is one of the better technologies - feather and ikon use it and it’s great for getting complex shapes like guards done in stainless at a low per unit price. But again it’s just a fancy version of casting and the parts don’t have a metal grain to them and thus are still susceptible to cracking if too much stress is exerted.

This is one reason I love gillette razors - because the demand for DE was so big in the mid 1950’s - progressive stamping not only was the best technology it was also the only technology that could keep up with hundreds of thousands if not millions of razor handles needed. And because the most expensive thing is the set up and tooling, it made it possible for fatboys to cost $1.95 - today equivalent to $17.

This is some amazing knowledge sharing and perhaps a rare insight on how Gillette made its razors. Like today, back in the day when Gillette like today was towering over  other competitors and  had the money power to spend so much on R&D and also have enough sales to make a huge profits in the investmwnt.
My respect for Matt's knowledge as an authority on stuff wet shaving  has grown tremendously !
Also I am impressed to see Matt coming in to a thread of a competition product which is really struggling and taking a stand to answer questions on why it is indeed such a hard task to make a Gillette clone . Instead of just keeping quiet which he could have and let the credibility of Rockwell tumble down still in this thread and perhaps made many in this thread lean towards his product - he chose to come in as a true professional who has experience of making a complex razor and having his Share of upsets and improvements.

I really am all  respect for Matt being a fine gentleman and a true professional. I will be glad to have bought the Rex ambassador which is his craftsmanship z knowing he took a stand which he could have avoided completely.

Some industrial espionage is in order for Rockwell here, they should take hold of a Parthenon and take it apart. LOL

I am skeptical about qshave taking the money before making the razor. They are in the business too long and have made pretty good clones of a complex tool like the futur. Parker has made the variant a clone of the progress and RE has made the  Rex Ambassador without taking any money.

I think they just jumped on to the Kickstarter to take the money even if they wouldn't have the need for it as they would have seen that Kickstarter razor campaigns get many wet shavers excited to commit money and hence add more volume to the numbers before the razor is even made. I think they're disappointed to see that the Merkur futur clone did not set the market the fire even at that price point hence using a Kickstarter would perhaps gather much more momentum at a higher price point.

Chinese manufactures have seen the wet Shaving market potential for high margin products and are no longer content to merely be low price OEM suppliers to USA and European vendors who brand and mark up their products with a large margin..I think players like Yaqi and qshave want to step up their game and cut out their OEM low price low profit model and market their brand at almost equal price points as the established competition.

Just my two cents...

Thank you for the kind words. I have met Garreth of Rockwell and he’s a really nice guy. I would never wish a company in our industry Ill will - first it’s bad karma and second we are all here to serve the customer. There’s more than enough customers who want more than enough razors for many companies to thrive.

I will say that competition is the way the market will decide who wins and who looses. Competition is why many new companies are trying to get into the wet shaving game. The hope is that ultimately the consumer wins because this competition will drove the best products up and the bad ones won’t survive.

I would like to also note - from my observations of Parker and weshi TTO razors - rather than progressive stamping their parts, they instead cast their parts. It’s one reason why (I think) Rockwell switched the components from all stainless to brass zamak and stainless. And from their updates it seems that they are indeed casting these complex parts like the T bar and doors. This casting certainly makes the Parts cheap to produce on a per unit price, but if your mold is bad then you have an expensive problem to fix.

Another reason why gillette is king of the tto - look at a gillette T bar. Then look really closely. It’s a stamped part that is folded over on itself to make a mirror image from one side to the next. This is beyond a tall order - in fact I’ve shown it to stamping companies today and everyone who sees it just is awestruck. If it’s not folded perfectly then you will get un even blade gap.

The fact that I can swap T bars on two different razors made years apart and they are completely interchangeable is incredible. That means the stamping die held tolerances for millions of impressions. Hence the high initial investment but ultimate superiority over CNC or casting.

Thx

Matt




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