Copy Cats and Market Shift

To be fair the Yaqi is not a clone or even a copy of the PAA DOC. It is an "inspired by" which works pretty well, but its configuration and geometry are quite different.

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So basically creating a Clubman inspired scent is still the same thing as a Chinese guy doing a lower quality DOC copy. Someone will improve it and sell at a higher price, someone will use cheaper plastic and sell it at a lower price - STILL The SAME THING. Let's not be hypocrites and only defend something when it's to our own advantage.
Anyway, what I'm saying, you can stop it. The whole world is COPYING. I would like to have a haircut like the guy from Mad Men. I will probably copy it/dupe it/be inspired by it/improve it. Should they sue me for it?   
For god sake, didn't Gillette took someone else's idea already? Did the world stop shaving or innovating? Nope, they tried everything they can - be it lower price, lower quality OR HIGHER quality product to find their place in the market. All good things for the consumers. You only need to find a way. Or ways.

This was my exact point earlier in the thread.  
CaD314 made this statement and I'm going to make sure it was in context so I provided the entire thing here:

Sure, I just think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't have a problem with what you refer to as cloning, obviously, I have a problem with faceless Chinese and Russian mills that come in to our community and start duplicating what we as small artisans and vendors have worked on here for awhile, as I said, done all the heavy lifting. This is VERY different than a small artisan, like many, that replicate a scent from a huge company or corporation that exists outside of the niche and need not worry about competition from a small fish for market share in their pond or ocean...two verydifferent bodies of water, if you will. These Chinese & Russian manufacturers are in the same pond as the little guy they are taking from. This would be like me duping a Barristar & mann scent and selling it in the forums.

Clone to me means an exact duplicate, which I have never done when it comes to scents, I always add my own twist, as I do a razor I reboot. With our software, we pride ourselves on our unique soap formula and aftershave bases, completely our own invention, that lots of time and years went into, in terms of development...So it seems like oversimplification to dismiss those as "Clones".

So the small artisan is the reason the posts were made because the small artisan is "doing the heavy lifting, research, development, etc" and getting ripped off by the copycat YAQI or whatever Chinese Manufacturer.  Did Clubman not ever do heavy lifting?  Did Barbasol not ever do heavy lifting?  How about Creed and their Irish Tweed scent?  Aqua Velva didn't work hard ever? Was research, testing, development not done on all of that?  Of course it was and now they are established brands being copied.  The scent is there already, its on the market, its there for the smelling and its getting  cloned.  Just because a brand is big and on store shelves does not mean that they have any less value than some small artisan.  I don't look at things like the "big guys" and the "little guys."  Barbasol, Clubman, Aqua Velva and all of these other brands getting copied were small guys at one time were they not?  I have tons of respect for brands that have made it that huge because it takes a certain amount of genius to pull that off.  A copy is a copy, whether its of a small artisan or a "big evil corporation" it doesn't change what it is. Sorry but the scents I've experienced from PAA are clones, even if they are "just a little bit different." The foundation of the entire scent is there period. One little bitty change here or there doesn't make it COMPLETELY different. Furthermore, look at the names you made of the products: Clubguy, Twee, Cold Spices, Irish Springs, Barbersoul (had to be changed) and so forth.  Its being marketed to the wet shaver as a copy, be honest here.

Now I want to go on record again, I have no problem with cloning of scents and other shaving products. I'm good with it and praise artisans for their nose and the ability to provide these things to us. I just want to make sure that we are all honest here and complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite.  All of the innovation should be embraced here, not just the innovation that suits you. Let's be fair.

As i have tried to point out over and over again, my beef was with people or companies within our own niche copying and underpricing, Simple as that. I don't think my higher priced homage to Clubman is making them reconsider scent production. It is also different, a variation as is done in jazz. The formula is really, really different...thus making it not a clone. The plastic vs glass example you use has nothing to do with what or why mine cost more, if this is your thinking than that explains the disconnect. What I was speaking of was how I was now rethinking doing reboots and how I felt about that.

I also use similar names as part of the homage and to be transparent, as I do on my sales page. Some brands do grab other concepts and ideas and never give a tip of the hat, I do out of respect and admiration.

"complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite." <====== It's not the EXACT same thing that I was talking about nor what upset me.

Nothing hypocritical about what I said. I was bothered by unknown (chinese/russian) manufacturers coming into a small niche and doing this. I thought I was really clear on that. To compare this to dupes and reboots one does as a small artisan in a small niche outside of the mainstream one that the big boys play in is just a different scenario. This upsets me not only for myself but also for others and others to come. The conversation I thought I was having was about razor clones and that is what I spoke to.

"Did Clubman not ever do heavy lifting? Did Barbasol not ever do heavy lifting? " <====== This is not at all what I'm talking about. These companies are huge conglomerates outside our niche and VERY well established.

I was also stating I have not built a business on dupes but it seems like you fellas missed the point too, that's fine. Lastly, I pointed out that I accepted where the niche was going. I was just sharing an opinion and my experience, there really is no right answer or wrong, I just don't think it's kosher to call or imply someone is a hypocritical apple when you have been talking about oranges. Sorry for the confusion.

To be fair the Yaqi is not a clone or even a copy of the PAA DOC. It is an "inspired by" which works pretty well, but its configuration and geometry are quite different.

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True, and I found out this after the fact, the posts seem to be different from what I have seen. I still went through a ton of emotions when I first saw it, and they were calling it The DOC, which I coined. Fun thread!

Now I want to go on record again, I have no problem with cloning of scents and other shaving products. I'm good with it and praise artisans for their nose and the ability to provide these things to us. I just want to make sure that we are all honest here and complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite.  All of the innovation should be embraced here, not just the innovation that suits you. Let's be fair.

Forgot to add this, yes, creating an exact copy/clone/dupe or a inspired by razor/scent whatever also requires money, time and energy. Hands down to all of you artisan peeps or big corps with r&d departments!



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Now I want to go on record again, I have no problem with cloning of scents and other shaving products. I'm good with it and praise artisans for their nose and the ability to provide these things to us. I just want to make sure that we are all honest here and complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite.  All of the innovation should be embraced here, not just the innovation that suits you. Let's be fair.

Forgot to add this, yes, creating an exact copy/clone/dupe or a inspired by razor/scent whatever also requires money, time and energy. Hands down to all of you artisan peeps or big corps with r&d departments!



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LOL, wish I had a RnD dept.

Now I want to go on record again, I have no problem with cloning of scents and other shaving products. I'm good with it and praise artisans for their nose and the ability to provide these things to us. I just want to make sure that we are all honest here and complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite.  All of the innovation should be embraced here, not just the innovation that suits you. Let's be fair.

Forgot to add this, yes, creating an exact copy/clone/dupe or a inspired by razor/scent whatever also requires money, time and energy. Hands down to all of you artisan peeps or big corps with r&d departments!



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LOL, wish I had a RnD dept.

So do we.

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As i have tried to point out over and over again, my beef was with people or companies within our own niche copying and underpricing, Simple as that. I don't think my higher priced homage to Clubman is making them reconsider scent production. It is also different, a variation as is done in jazz. The formula is really different...thus making it not a clone. What I was speaking of was how I was now rethinking doing reboots and how I felt about that.

I also use similar names as part of the homage and to be transparent, as I do on my sales page. Some brands do grab other concepts and ideas and never give a tip of the hat, I do out of respect and admiration.

"complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite." <====== It's not the EXACT same thing that I was talking about nor what upset me.

Nothing hypocritical about what I said. I was bothered by unknown (chinese/russian) manufacturers coming into a small niche and doing this. I thought I was really clear on that. To compare this to dupes and reboots one does as a small artisan in a small niche outside of the mainstream one that the big boys play in is just a different scenario. This upsets me not only for myself but also for others and others to come. The conversation I thought I was having was about razor clones and that is what I spoke to.

"Did Clubman not ever do heavy lifting? Did Barbasol not ever do heavy lifting? " <====== This is not at all what I'm talking about. These companies are huge conglomerates outside our niche and VERY well established.

I was also stating I have not built a business on dupes but it seems like you fellas missed the point too, that's fine. Lastly, I pointed out that I accepted where the niche was going. I was just sharing an opinion and my experience, there really is no right answer or wrong, I just don't think it's kosher to call or imply someone is a hypocritical apple when you have been talking about oranges. Sorry for the confusion.

I can get you are the producer so you have your own point of view and your beef etc.

But i also have some remarks.
First of, for a customer there is no such a thing as underpricing. Underpricing means somebody offer something below a standard price. For me it means cheaper. Does he do it at his own cost with a loss willingly to push you out or are his costy way cheaper than your or is your price actually OVERpriced so he is satisfied with a smaller profit margin I shouldn't care. Also, one can enter the market but even charhing more than the current price. Maybe if he uses better ingredients or smth. I just love the fact we have 10 green irish tweed dupes/inspiredby scents. I have the option to compare them to choose what suits me best and so on

Second, don't agree on the Clubman thing. It's based on it and it's name is similiar thus wanting to be related to the original. Hommage or just good marketing? Who knows. Fake Nikes also have a Nikkei name on them, inspired by shoes Anyway, it's a inspired by scent, meaning somewhat based on the original. Is it cheaper or more expensive than the original is totally not important.
And who knows what do the guys at Clubman think. Maybe they are waiting for you to become a bigger company and then buy you off. You did enter their market. A part of it at least. Maybe unilever buys PAA like they did with dollar shave club.

Third, why does it matter who comes into the niche? Maybe guys at the Tabac factory are pissed off at all of you artisans that steal their market. Which you did. And that's legit. Maybe Merkur people are not happy with maggard razors.... Small guys, big guys, totally irrelevant. Why is it one thing when there are 10 new artisans on the market but 1 big chinese conglomerate is another? Everybody is competing in that same niche. Maybe if you start making womens face creams tomorrow you enter a new niche and there is a hanfull of small producers and suddendly you're the big guy entering the niche marketand you can offer cheaper products cause of having larger scale production. What than?

As soon as a market evolve and grows into something bigger its natural bigger players will step in. A lot of mainstream markets were niche markets once. Big guys became big guys by diversification and growing, they were probably small when they started just like you did. So, can't see why is it a totally different scenario.

The above also refers to Clubman/Barbasol being big conglomerates-totally irrelevant. They did heavy lifting to become the conglomerate, they still do r&d, they can still complain about the smaller or bigger guys taking pieces of their market. If they assess entering into wetshaving market is profitable, why can't they. Or why shouldn't they. If it means by creating a new soap, duping famous fragrances or even buying i.e. Razorock. They have every right to enter the market just like you did.

All the best to your business, but I am all for more guys, big or small coming into this. It motivates the existing artisans to become better and what the OP said - going premium, offers more choice and lower prices.

To be fair the Yaqi is not a clone or even a copy of the PAA DOC. It is an "inspired by" which works pretty well, but its configuration and geometry are quite different.

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Both are inferior to the original Shave King in purpose. The Shave King had smaller grooves to hold water via tension after rinsing to bring water to the face and hydrate the lather. With large groves its just deco. YMMV and all that

To be fair the Yaqi is not a clone or even a copy of the PAA DOC. It is an "inspired by" which works pretty well, but its configuration and geometry are quite different.

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Both are inferior to the original Shave King in purpose. The Shave King had smaller grooves to hold water via tension after rinsing to bring water to the face and hydrate the lather. With large groves its just deco. YMMV and all that

I'd say 90% of the reviews of the GSK find it to be too mild, especially compared to the Yaqi/RR. I never noticed hydration being an issue as a general rule and figure most of the appeal is the look and not its autolube gimmickry. I see very few actually using the GSK as a regular shaver.

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To be fair the Yaqi is not a clone or even a copy of the PAA DOC. It is an "inspired by" which works pretty well, but its configuration and geometry are quite different.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Both are inferior to the original Shave King in purpose. The Shave King had smaller grooves to hold water via tension after rinsing to bring water to the face and hydrate the lather. With large groves its just deco. YMMV and all that

I'd say 90% of the reviews of the GSK find it to be too mild, especially compared to the Yaqi/RR. I never noticed hydration being an issue as a general rule and figure most of the appeal is the look and not its autolube gimmickry. I see very few actually using the GSK as a regular shaver.

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YMMV but that was the purpose Joseph Mellon had is designing the razor. You can find it under Patent US2374612A. The relevant portion is

April 24, 1945. .1. M. MELLON SAFETY RAZOR Filed Jan. 29, 1944 INVENYTOR. JOSEPH M. MELLO/V Patented Apr. 24, 1945 UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE SAFETY RAZOR Joseph M. Mellon, Detroit, Mich. Application January'29', 1944, Serial No. 520,333

3 Claims. My invention relates to a new and useful improvement in a safety razor, and has for its object the provision of a safety razor so constructed and arranged that when dipped in water or placed in a running stream of water, it will retain a quantity of the water and release the same when the cutting edge of the blade is placed against the face.

It is another object of the invention to provide a safety razor so constructed and arranged that it may moisten the lather immediately preceding the cutting blade as it is drawn over the face.

Another object of the invention is the provision of a safety razor having a back plate provided at its opposite edges with transversely directed longitudinally spaced apart slots of such a width as to provide water receiving and retaining spaces so thatas the razor is drawn over the face in the shaving'operation, the water retained in the slots will flow onto the face and serve moistening purposes.