Copy Cats and Market Shift

CaD314  Are you done trying to get into stores like Whole Foods?

No sir, it just takes time and I am time poor at the moment; The show, getting products EU certified, organizing The Big Shave, creating new products both hardware & software, running a business, we also just bought are own building and are working on that, etc. When we get a chance, we will hyper focus on that again. So as not to throw this thread off its rails anymore, email me with any other questions that you have, I'd be glad to answer! I do appreciate the interest though!
cheers

Maybe I'm just old but the innovation you see, I see as just reinventing the wheel and marketing. All the new hardware has not really improved on the designs that existed in the heyday of DE and SE shaving. The last razors I have seen that innovate were when Dupont brought out the Classic Shaving Cobra which allowed people to easily use the Feather line of SE blades in a new form factor and Ikon's dual head design. Past those two its all been tweaks, added bling, better finish or price points.

Maybe I'm just old but the innovation you see, I see as just reinventing the wheel and marketing. All the new hardware has not really improved on the designs that existed in the heyday of DE and SE shaving. The last razors I have seen that innovate were when Dupont brought out the Classic Shaving Cobra which allowed people to easily use the Feather line of SE blades in a new form factor and Ikon's dual head design. Past those two its all been tweaks, added bling, better finish or price points.

I would say that every new double open comb razor is a better design and more efficient than the original Grand Shave King razor (Yes I have used one). That's like saying that newer cars aren't any better than a Model-T Ford. Puh-leaze lol. I'll get off your lawn now......

Maybe I'm just old but the innovation you see, I see as just reinventing the wheel and marketing. All the new hardware has not really improved on the designs that existed in the heyday of DE and SE shaving. The last razors I have seen that innovate were when Dupont brought out the Classic Shaving Cobra which allowed people to easily use the Feather line of SE blades in a new form factor and Ikon's dual head design...

Actually Ikon's dual comb Shavecraft 101 was a reboot (to use the phraseology adopted here) of the 30s German Punktal 101.

....Rockwell 2C and 6C razors are original and affordable.

They are. Worth noting though that Rockwell, although they have sought to restrict American distribution of the Ikon SBS as infringing on their patent of a flippable baseplate, did not invent the concept, it's a feature of the (gorgeous) French Bohin razor. The SBS of course is more Pils than it is Rockwell but Pils would have no design patent protection...

Life is complicated.





Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Actually Ikon's dual comb Shavecraft 101 was a reboot (to use the phraseology adopted here) of the 30s German Punktal 101.



They are. Worth noting though that Rockwell, although they have sought to restrict American distribution of the Ikon SBS as infringing on their patent of a flippable baseplate, did not invent the concept, it's a feature of the (gorgeous) French Bohin razor. The SBS of course is more Pils than it is Rockwell but Pils would have no design patent protection...

Life is complicated.


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

True on both points. Greg relied on refining old DE designs and I think he succeeded. Kinda emphasizes my point. I am straight user and when I do use a DE it's a 30's Tech which to me personally was the pinnacle of closed comb DE design.

Many great points in the thread.

What we can say for a fact that majority of people, in general, and in huge markets will always try to go for a cheaper price. It's just the nature of how things work. The producer wants the cheapest possible inputs (not cheapest like 0,01$ but cheapest possible for the desired quality) and the customer wants the cheapest end product. It goes around in a circle. No one can stop that, and you can't blame anyone for trying to do it. It's natural.
The logic of things and the greedy nature of humans is the supply side will take as much as it can no matter be it a little guy or a corp, and if it's a monopoly the demand side will A) Pay more than it should B) Stop buying it if there are alternatives.
When the price of oil gets too high, investments in renewable energy goes up - people searching alternatives.
ACTUALLY - since Gillette is a way too big player and is ever present they are keeping the price of carts high - HAHA - it's actually one of the most common reasons people switch to wet shaving - searching cheaper alternatives. That's why Dollar Shave club came to exist. By venture capitalists (same way anything else can be invented) And is now bought I believe by Unilever.
So, competition is good! It is a constant battle and it is hard, but the strongest survive and one must find it's ways too combat others or go bust. It's like that from the beginning of time so the story about big-time Chinese factories doing it from the little guy is a logical fallacy.

I worked as a restaurant/bar manager in the past. Searching for a way how to become popular I looked into foreign trends, traveled a bit and so on. So my team and I started offering finger food, street food, tapas, however you call it and wine by the glass. At the time no one had it in our city. It became a hit. Instantly. People could have a snack and drink, dance whatever. Next summer there were 5 other restaurants. What could I do? Cry cause other's stole my ideas? After all, I copied it from someone else as well, but totally beside the point. So I tried to be better again by improving our quality, finding new stuff we can offer and so on and so forth. It's the way the market works.

Next, since we are a niche market - a pretty tighter community than regular cart/foam shavers - we are involved in the makings and people in the hobby appreciate the hard work, the energy put into it by the artisan. Part of that is the way artisans are involved with their customers. Good marketing also. Many times I read how a soap is ''underappreciated'' - why? well, cause the artisan is nowhere to be found. Noone hears from him, bad customer service,  there's no announcements and so on.
That's why even though there are no patents people still buy ''the original''. That is possible since the market is small.
If wet shaving became a massive trend, there would probably be more and more copies (that is actually happening since the market is growing) since everybody wants a piece of the cake and there's no monopoly - which is again very good for the consumer. Despite that, THERE ARE STILL INNOVATIONS! And there always will be.
If the market becomes big enough there is a possibility Gillette would start making soaps and safety razors again. There's a possibility they buy of artisans and small hardware makers.

That said, there will always be cloning/knocking off, stealing ideas, IMPROVING/HOMMAGING as you might call it. There will always be INSPIRED BY scents, razors, clothes, cars, haircuts, books, whatever. Doesn't matter if it costs more than the ''original'', the first idea, it's still the same thing.
It is possible Yaqi invents a totally new DE and someone IMPROVES IT. Same like a lot of US razor makers today took inspiration and IMPROVED older DEs.
So basically creating a Clubman inspired scent is still the same thing as a Chinese guy doing a lower quality DOC copy. Someone will improve it and sell at a higher price, someone will use cheaper plastic and sell it at a lower price - STILL The SAME THING. Let's not be hypocrites and only defend something when it's to our own advantage.
Anyway, what I'm saying, you can stop it. The whole world is COPYING. I would like to have a haircut like the guy from Mad Men. I will probably copy it/dupe it/be inspired by it/improve it. Should they sue me for it?  
For god sake, didn't Gillette took someone else's idea already? Did the world stop shaving or innovating? Nope, they tried everything they can - be it lower price, lower quality OR HIGHER quality product to find their place in the market. All good things for the consumers. You only need to find a way. Or ways.


Nothing can stop innovation, patents or no patents, and that is a good thing.

As a consumer, I find that highly unbalanced competition is rarely good for me. The “strongest” that products that survive are rarely the ones I actually use and prefer. More often than not, it’s the mediocre (at best) that survive.

Humans will cut our own throat any chance we get.

More importantly, I’ve learned in this thread that there is a shaving product homage to Hoppe’s no 9 gunpowder solvent, perhaps the best “classic scent” ever!

So basically creating a Clubman inspired scent is still the same thing as a Chinese guy doing a lower quality DOC copy. Someone will improve it and sell at a higher price, someone will use cheaper plastic and sell it at a lower price - STILL The SAME THING. Let's not be hypocrites and only defend something when it's to our own advantage.
Anyway, what I'm saying, you can stop it. The whole world is COPYING. I would like to have a haircut like the guy from Mad Men. I will probably copy it/dupe it/be inspired by it/improve it. Should they sue me for it?   
For god sake, didn't Gillette took someone else's idea already? Did the world stop shaving or innovating? Nope, they tried everything they can - be it lower price, lower quality OR HIGHER quality product to find their place in the market. All good things for the consumers. You only need to find a way. Or ways.

This was my exact point earlier in the thread.  
CaD314 made this statement and I'm going to make sure it was in context so I provided the entire thing here:

Sure, I just think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't have a problem with what you refer to as cloning, obviously, I have a problem with faceless Chinese and Russian mills that come in to our community and start duplicating what we as small artisans and vendors have worked on here for awhile, as I said, done all the heavy lifting. This is VERY different than a small artisan, like many, that replicate a scent from a huge company or corporation that exists outside of the niche and need not worry about competition from a small fish for market share in their pond or ocean...two verydifferent bodies of water, if you will. These Chinese & Russian manufacturers are in the same pond as the little guy they are taking from. This would be like me duping a Barristar & mann scent and selling it in the forums.

Clone to me means an exact duplicate, which I have never done when it comes to scents, I always add my own twist, as I do a razor I reboot. With our software, we pride ourselves on our unique soap formula and aftershave bases, completely our own invention, that lots of time and years went into, in terms of development...So it seems like oversimplification to dismiss those as "Clones".

So the small artisan is the reason the posts were made because the small artisan is "doing the heavy lifting, research, development, etc" and getting ripped off by the copycat YAQI or whatever Chinese Manufacturer.  Did Clubman not ever do heavy lifting?  Did Barbasol not ever do heavy lifting?  How about Creed and their Irish Tweed scent?  Aqua Velva didn't work hard ever? Was research, testing, development not done on all of that?  Of course it was and now they are established brands being copied.  The scent is there already, its on the market, its there for the smelling and its getting  cloned.  Just because a brand is big and on store shelves does not mean that they have any less value than some small artisan.  I don't look at things like the "big guys" and the "little guys."  Barbasol, Clubman, Aqua Velva and all of these other brands getting copied were small guys at one time were they not?  I have tons of respect for brands that have made it that huge because it takes a certain amount of genius to pull that off.  A copy is a copy, whether its of a small artisan or a "big evil corporation" it doesn't change what it is. Sorry but the scents I've experienced from PAA are clones, even if they are "just a little bit different." The foundation of the entire scent is there period. One little bitty change here or there doesn't make it COMPLETELY different. Furthermore, look at the names you made of the products: Clubguy, Twee, Cold Spices, Irish Springs, Barbersoul (had to be changed) and so forth.  Its being marketed to the wet shaver as a copy, be honest here.

Now I want to go on record again, I have no problem with cloning of scents and other shaving products. I'm good with it and praise artisans for their nose and the ability to provide these things to us. I just want to make sure that we are all honest here and complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite.  All of the innovation should be embraced here, not just the innovation that suits you. Let's be fair.

So basically creating a Clubman inspired scent is still the same thing as a Chinese guy doing a lower quality DOC copy. Someone will improve it and sell at a higher price, someone will use cheaper plastic and sell it at a lower price - STILL The SAME THING. Let's not be hypocrites and only defend something when it's to our own advantage.
Anyway, what I'm saying, you can stop it. The whole world is COPYING. I would like to have a haircut like the guy from Mad Men. I will probably copy it/dupe it/be inspired by it/improve it. Should they sue me for it?   
For god sake, didn't Gillette took someone else's idea already? Did the world stop shaving or innovating? Nope, they tried everything they can - be it lower price, lower quality OR HIGHER quality product to find their place in the market. All good things for the consumers. You only need to find a way. Or ways.

This was my exact point earlier in the thread.  
CaD314 made this statement and I'm going to make sure it was in context so I provided the entire thing here:

Sure, I just think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't have a problem with what you refer to as cloning, obviously, I have a problem with faceless Chinese and Russian mills that come in to our community and start duplicating what we as small artisans and vendors have worked on here for awhile, as I said, done all the heavy lifting. This is VERY different than a small artisan, like many, that replicate a scent from a huge company or corporation that exists outside of the niche and need not worry about competition from a small fish for market share in their pond or ocean...two verydifferent bodies of water, if you will. These Chinese & Russian manufacturers are in the same pond as the little guy they are taking from. This would be like me duping a Barristar & mann scent and selling it in the forums.

Clone to me means an exact duplicate, which I have never done when it comes to scents, I always add my own twist, as I do a razor I reboot. With our software, we pride ourselves on our unique soap formula and aftershave bases, completely our own invention, that lots of time and years went into, in terms of development...So it seems like oversimplification to dismiss those as "Clones".

So the small artisan is the reason the posts were made because the small artisan is "doing the heavy lifting, research, development, etc" and getting ripped off by the copycat YAQI or whatever Chinese Manufacturer.  Did Clubman not ever do heavy lifting?  Did Barbasol not ever do heavy lifting?  How about Creed and their Irish Tweed scent?  Aqua Velva didn't work hard ever? Was research, testing, development not done on all of that?  Of course it was and now they are established brands being copied.  The scent is there already, its on the market, its there for the smelling and its getting  cloned.  Just because a brand is big and on store shelves does not mean that they have any less value than some small artisan.  I don't look at things like the "big guys" and the "little guys."  Barbasol, Clubman, Aqua Velva and all of these other brands getting copied were small guys at one time were they not?  I have tons of respect for brands that have made it that huge because it takes a certain amount of genius to pull that off.  A copy is a copy, whether its of a small artisan or a "big evil corporation" it doesn't change what it is. Sorry but the scents I've experienced from PAA are clones, even if they are "just a little bit different." The foundation of the entire scent is there period. One little bitty change here or there doesn't make it COMPLETELY different. Furthermore, look at the names you made of the products: Clubguy, Twee, Cold Spices, Irish Springs, Barbersoul (had to be changed) and so forth.  Its being marketed to the wet shaver as a copy, be honest here.

Now I want to go on record again, I have no problem with cloning of scents and other shaving products. I'm good with it and praise artisans for their nose and the ability to provide these things to us. I just want to make sure that we are all honest here and complaining about something that "hurts" your business when one is doing the EXACT same thing just with a different product because it makes a vendor look like a hypocrite.  All of the innovation should be embraced here, not just the innovation that suits you. Let's be fair.

Agree 100%