Copy Cats and Market Shift

How do you guys feel about scent dupes ? A lot of our artisans bring soaps saying 'Inspired by <insert a fragrance>'. I heard there are dupes of even Barbasol. I am not into scent making, but I heard those are investments as well.

I feel the same way about copied scents. However, my preference runs to the simple side. Many modern scents are a bit complex for me. That also means I know little about what they may be copied from.

How do you guys feel about scent dupes ? A lot of our artisans bring soaps saying 'Inspired by <insert a fragrance>'. I heard there are dupes of even Barbasol. I am not into scent making, but I heard those are investments as well.

See, I'm fine with cloning things, especially fragrances/soaps along with razors and everything else, because it brings down prices of things, as well as saturates the market with more selection.  What kind of makes me laugh is CaD314 says this below:

"I personally think copy cats kill innovation, creativity and turn away the trail blazers. I know for myself it has. I don't think I will be putting my time and energy into rebooting and tweaking an obscure classic razor anymore only for some Chinese or Russian company to release it 6 months later at half the price...and then wholesale to my competitors. As a small artisan I am taking a risk by bringing an unknown or odd looking razor to market in a enviroment where everyone was selling EJ & Muhle clones. We typically put months, sometimes years into the research and development. In short, why do all the heavy lifting, (especially as the little guy)? I had a list of some really great classics, with added modern tweaks, that i'm just afraid to do now. In the beginning my goal after the DOC was to bring back hard to find beauties at a fair, price far lower than the vintage and far more available...those days are looking to be over. (it was bound to happen)."

Problem with this is, CaD314  wants to have it both ways.  He copies scents all day long to make his soaps and aftershaves does he not? CaD is a fragrance dupe, Clubguy is a fragrance dupe, 11235 is a fragrance dupe, Steeplechase sport is a fragrance dupe, Aqua D/G is a fragrance dupe, Cold Spices is a fragrance dupe, so is Twee and so on.  So how can someone complain about "copycatting" when they are doing the EXACT same thing, only with a different product?  I hate to single you out here, but you should be on the side of folks like me, that do not mind things being offered to the market that are dupes/clones etc because you've built your soap and aftershave business off of doing that have you not?

To be fair, I have a Parker Variant. I know that some elements of the design are blatantly copied from the Merkur Progress. However, the Progress is over 60 years old, Parker fixed most of what I didn’t like about Merkur’s design, and the Variant is priced comparably to the Progress.

The Variant is not a knockoff per se, but if the Progress was a recent design I would expect some royalties to be paid.

This is a very fascinating thread.
I am no expert; I am not an economist; I am not an inventor. I am just a consumer. Speaking just for shaving items, after all, this is a shaving forum, I usually don't search out clones, or dupes of anything. I have purchased a Mystic Water Irish Traveller, which is a dupe of Creed's Green Irish Tweed. I do have a bottle of the original and had I been able to find a Creed, I would have purchased that. In fact, some dupes may be even better than the original. When I got back into wet shaving, I did purchase a Micro-Touch One, which is clearly a clone of a Gillette Super-Speed. I now use the originals. I have shopped for my soaps on Amazon, but have also purchased directly from the e-tailer (is that a word?). What's my point? I believe today's consumers want shopping convenience, large selection and low prices. Who doesn't? I appreciate the effort it takes to bring a new product to market. I also believe it is inherently unfair for a company to steal intellectual property and sell it for pennies on the dollar. On the other hand, as someone who takes a particular drug daily, I am hoping that this patent runs out soon, so I can purchase this drug at a reasonable cost. I guess that makes me a hypocrite. As a musician, almost all melodies are "copies" of another, which is why you cannot copyright a melody, only lyrics. Does that make them any less beautiful? Andrew Lloyd Weber blatantly stole Giacomo Puccini's melodies for his Broadway show Phantom of the Opera. There was some outrage, but people didn't' boycott the show. A clone of a Gillette Super-Speed introduced me to our hobby. Clones aren't going anywhere and after all, very few new products are reinventing a better mousetrap. Ramble finished.

Problem with this is, CaD314  wants to have it both ways.  He copies scents all day long to make his soaps and aftershaves does he not? CaD is a fragrance dupe, Clubguy is a fragrance dupe, 11235 is a fragrance dupe, Steeplechase sport is a fragrance dupe, Aqua D/G is a fragrance dupe, Cold Spices is a fragrance dupe, so is Twee and so on.  So how can someone complain about "copycatting" when they are doing the EXACT same thing, only with a different product?  I hate to single you out here, but you should be on the side of folks like me, that do not mind things being offered to the market that are dupes/clones etc because you've built your soap and aftershave business off of doing that have you not?

Actually no sir, I have not built a business on dupes, maybe you are thinking of FINE? I'm very proud to say, we actually built our business out of being and doing things very differently than most...with little sleep.

While it's true I do offer some classic homages to stuff that is available (kinda), I mainly try to reboot scents that are not available anymore. Cad is a tribute to vintage barbasol from back in the day and Colgate from waaaaaaay back, no longer available. My clubguy is an homage to Clubman and it contains better ingredients, it also cost more than the original...so I am not duping them and charging less. 11235 is is an homage to 4711 and I ONLY make it in a soap so that customers may pair it with the original cologne. Cold Spices is an homage to Old Spice's classic Shulton's Formula which they no longer make and it's mentholated unlike the original. Steeple Chase is a mentholated aftershave not a EDP as is Aqua D/G, etc...these can be paired with the original if so desired.

What you speak of is a tad different. I'm also not duping small artisans, which was the main point I was trying to make, sorry if I was not clear. I like to think I have actually brought some really new and interesting things to our budding wet shaving world, my latest being my Travel Scuttle and Atomic Bay Rum, my current #1 selling splash...and an Original creation. Out of the gate Synergy was an 8oz large format tin and our entire line was originals for the first 1.5 years.

I have done some contemporary tribute scents at my customers request but if I must, I am more interested in rebooting classics no longer available, which I collect. I feel they'd be lost to history otherwise, but my heart is really in my original fragrances however. I often feel like a musician that has a songbook of originals yet the audience keeps screaming out for cover tunes. lol, so I will continue to please my loyal customers and create originals to fulfill my own desire for The New.
That said, my originals far outnumber any dupes. All my top sellers are my originals, Al Fin, Tombstone, Sangre De Drago, Solstice, High Jump 47, AGHARTA, Dapper Doc, etc...hell, for the last two weeks I have been gearing up to release yet another original VERY soon and writing a new serial/chapter to the accompanying story/narrative each day...not sure how many else approach business like that. It's that kinda stuff that we have built our business on and wouldn't have it any other way...If all you think we do is dupes, you're not paying attention and I mean no disrespect by that at all.

Hope the difference is clearer now. Shave On!

This thread has been very interesting and fun folks!

As a product designer, I expect to be paid for my work just like anybody else. I enjoy my work, but I also have a mortgage, kid, fiancé.... I also have some familiarity with patents from multiple perspectives.

As an employee faced with layoffs every year, on average, for as long as I can remember, I see people buying knockoffs and shopping at Walmart and wondering why their own job is stagnant, vanishing, or just doesn’t pay the bills anymore.

As a consumer, I’ve learned that if one big box store doesn’t have what I’m looking for, none of them will because they are all the same. The great local hardware stores that had a great selection of useful stuff are gone. I patronized them, but too few others did. Once you start buying everything from Amazon and Walmart, you lose the option of NOT buying from them.

That Tabbarock curve applies to competition too. Up to a point, it’s good for everyone. Beyond that point, everyone loses.

the thing about competition is that if there's a gap in the market, you (or anyone) have the ability to fill it!

competition is good for most rather than the few.

I prefer to spend my money with those putting in the time, effort, and investment to create original products.

That said, I’m generally fine with designs similar to out-of-production products or those that have been in the market for decades. In other words, the aristocrat style razor handles are fine in my book, but I won’t buy a copy of a Wolfman WRH7 handle.

I also don’t see this as an argument of affordable vs. high end products. For example, Rockwell 2C and 6C razors are original and affordable.


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Problem with this is, CaD314  wants to have it both ways.  He copies scents all day long to make his soaps and aftershaves does he not? CaD is a fragrance dupe, Clubguy is a fragrance dupe, 11235 is a fragrance dupe, Steeplechase sport is a fragrance dupe, Aqua D/G is a fragrance dupe, Cold Spices is a fragrance dupe, so is Twee and so on.  So how can someone complain about "copycatting" when they are doing the EXACT same thing, only with a different product?  I hate to single you out here, but you should be on the side of folks like me, that do not mind things being offered to the market that are dupes/clones etc because you've built your soap and aftershave business off of doing that have you not?

Actually no sir, I have not built a business on dupes, maybe you are thinking of FINE? I'm very proud to say, we actually built our business out of being and doing things very differently than most...with little sleep.

While it's true I do offer some classic homages to stuff that is available (kinda), I mainly try to reboot scents that are not available anymore. Cad is a tribute to vintage barbasol from back in the day and Colgate from waaaaaaay back, no longer available. My clubguy is an homage to Clubman and it contains better ingredients, it also cost more than the original...so I am not duping them and charging less. 11235 is is an homage to 4711 and I ONLY make it in a soap so that customers may pair it with the original cologne. Cold Spices is an homage to Old Spice's classic Shulton's Formula which they no longer make and it's mentholated unlike the original. Steeple Chase is a mentholated aftershave not a EDP as is Aqua D/G, etc...these can be paired with the original if so desired.

What you speak of is a tad different. I'm also not duping small artisans, which was the main point I was trying to make, sorry if I was not clear. I like to think I have actually brought some really new and interesting things to our budding wet shaving world, my latest being my Travel Scuttle and Atomic Bay Rum, my current #1 selling splash...and an Original creation. Out of the gate Synergy was an 8oz large format tin and our entire line was originals for the first 1.5 years.

I have done some contemporary tribute scents at my customers request but if I must, I am more interested in rebooting classics no longer available, which I collect. I feel they'd be lost to history otherwise, but my heart is really in my original fragrances however. I often feel like a musician that has a songbook of originals yet the audience keeps screaming out for cover tunes. lol, so I will continue to please my loyal customers and create originals to fulfill my own desire for The New.
That said, my originals far outnumber any dupes. All my top sellers are my originals, Al Fin, Tombstone, Sangre De Drago, Solstice, High Jump 47, AGHARTA, Dapper Doc, etc...hell, for the last two weeks I have been gearing up to release yet another original VERY soon and writing a new serial/chapter to the accompanying story/narrative each day...not sure how many else approach business like that. It's that kinda stuff that we have built our business on and wouldn't have it any other way...If all you think we do is dupes, you're not paying attention and I mean no disrespect by that at all.

Hope the difference is clearer now. Shave On!

This thread has been very interesting and fun folks!

Thanks for the response, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this which is fine by me. I say clone away, obviously I wasn't faulting you for that. My only point was it just didn't seem like you ought to be criticizing for cloning when you are doing some cloning yourself, you admitted it. Your response was respectful and I appreciate that thanks.

We do agree that the thread has been fun and respectful and hopefully that continues.

Problem with this is, CaD314  wants to have it both ways.  He copies scents all day long to make his soaps and aftershaves does he not? CaD is a fragrance dupe, Clubguy is a fragrance dupe, 11235 is a fragrance dupe, Steeplechase sport is a fragrance dupe, Aqua D/G is a fragrance dupe, Cold Spices is a fragrance dupe, so is Twee and so on.  So how can someone complain about "copycatting" when they are doing the EXACT same thing, only with a different product?  I hate to single you out here, but you should be on the side of folks like me, that do not mind things being offered to the market that are dupes/clones etc because you've built your soap and aftershave business off of doing that have you not?

Actually no sir, I have not built a business on dupes, maybe you are thinking of FINE? I'm very proud to say, we actually built our business out of being and doing things very differently than most...with little sleep.

While it's true I do offer some classic homages to stuff that is available (kinda), I mainly try to reboot scents that are not available anymore. Cad is a tribute to vintage barbasol from back in the day and Colgate from waaaaaaay back, no longer available. My clubguy is an homage to Clubman and it contains better ingredients, it also cost more than the original...so I am not duping them and charging less. 11235 is is an homage to 4711 and I ONLY make it in a soap so that customers may pair it with the original cologne. Cold Spices is an homage to Old Spice's classic Shulton's Formula which they no longer make and it's mentholated unlike the original. Steeple Chase is a mentholated aftershave not a EDP as is Aqua D/G, etc...these can be paired with the original if so desired.

What you speak of is a tad different. I'm also not duping small artisans, which was the main point I was trying to make, sorry if I was not clear. I like to think I have actually brought some really new and interesting things to our budding wet shaving world, my latest being my Travel Scuttle and Atomic Bay Rum, my current #1 selling splash...and an Original creation. Out of the gate Synergy was an 8oz large format tin and our entire line was originals for the first 1.5 years.

I have done some contemporary tribute scents at my customers request but if I must, I am more interested in rebooting classics no longer available, which I collect. I feel they'd be lost to history otherwise, but my heart is really in my original fragrances however. I often feel like a musician that has a songbook of originals yet the audience keeps screaming out for cover tunes. lol, so I will continue to please my loyal customers and create originals to fulfill my own desire for The New.
That said, my originals far outnumber any dupes. All my top sellers are my originals, Al Fin, Tombstone, Sangre De Drago, Solstice, High Jump 47, AGHARTA, Dapper Doc, etc...hell, for the last two weeks I have been gearing up to release yet another original VERY soon and writing a new serial/chapter to the accompanying story/narrative each day...not sure how many else approach business like that. It's that kinda stuff that we have built our business on and wouldn't have it any other way...If all you think we do is dupes, you're not paying attention and I mean no disrespect by that at all.

Hope the difference is clearer now. Shave On!

This thread has been very interesting and fun folks!

Thanks for the response, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this which is fine by me.  I say clone away, obviously I wasn't faulting you for that.  My only point was it just didn't seem like you ought to be criticizing for cloning when you are doing some cloning yourself, you admitted it.  Your response was respectful and I appreciate that thanks.  

We do agree that the thread has been fun and respectful and hopefully that continues.

Sure, I just think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't have a problem with what you refer to as cloning, obviously, I have a problem with faceless Chinese and Russian mills that come in to our community and start duplicating what we as small artisans and vendors have worked on here for awhile, as I said, done all the heavy lifting. This is VERY different than a small artisan, like many, that replicate a scent from a huge company or corporation that exists outside of the niche and need not worry about competition from a small fish for market share in their pond or ocean...two verydifferent bodies of water, if you will. These Chinese & Russian manufacturers are in the same pond as the little guy they are taking from. This would be like me duping a Barristar & mann scent and selling it in the forums.

Clone to me means an exact duplicate, which I have never done when it comes to scents, I always add my own twist, as I do a razor I reboot. With our software, we pride ourselves on our unique soap formula and aftershave bases, completely our own invention, that lots of time and years went into, in terms of development...So it seems like oversimplification to dismiss those as "Clones".

Take care brother and great chatting with you et al!