Barrister and Mann

Right. We're going to do this all at once.

Will, I've thought about posting this for a while so here goes, I had to think for a while before I pre-ordered Fougere Gothique, not because I think I might not like the scent and not because its in the reserve base (which as you know I've had trouble with) but because of the graphic on the label.  Its the devil.  Thats it. I find it disturbing.  We'll see how it goes once I get it, maybe I'll have to get a Priest to do an exorcism. I'm kidding on that point but seriously, I know its your business what you want to do with branding etc but you have to be aware that a creepy, satanic image on your label is going to offend some of your customers.  I'm well aware that skulls and other dark imagery seems to sell very well these days particularly when associated with a darker, scent such as Fougere Gothique.  So now I'm wondering what an Angel smells like and whether I can get such a soap/scent to restore some balance.

Will, I've thought about posting this for a while so here goes, I had to think for a while before I pre-ordered Fougere Gothique, not because I think I might not like the scent and not because its in the reserve base (which as you know I've had trouble with) but because of the graphic on the label.  Its the devil.  Thats it. I find it disturbing.  We'll see how it goes once I get it, maybe I'll have to get a Priest to do an exorcism. I'm kidding on that point but seriously, I know its your business what you want to do with branding etc but you have to be aware that a creepy, satanic image on your label is going to offend some of your customers.  I'm well aware that skulls and other dark imagery seems to sell very well these days particularly when associated with a darker, scent such as Fougere Gothique.  So now I'm wondering what an Angel smells like and whether I can get such a soap/scent to restore some balance.

I too am not a fan of the packaging.  Obviously, many who like it will roast me and say "dont buy it," and that is fair.  It just has absolutely no appeal to me and the email I got from Barrister and Mann was a bit interesting as well, with the "Better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven" moniker.  Not my thing. Obviously Will can sell what he wants how he wants but just as a regular customer its my two cents, the whole ensemble is going to be polarizing.

Along with the somewhat disturbing imagery and in my opinion, glorifying the devil and attempting to make it all sound cool, I find that we might be jumping the shark in the wet shaving community with the pricing trend of software.  $26.99 for a 4 ounce soap? I noticed Cheshire went up two bucks (thankfully right after I ordered it at its lower price) but I find the more artisans bringing this type of luxury price to the table for 4 ounce soft soaps to completely put me off.  Again, I'm going to get the same folks that say "dont buy it" or "let the market determine the price" and thats fine but I'm telling you right now, I'm in the market, I'm a customer and I'm not paying these kinds of prices for a 4 ounce SOFT soap. Tallow and Steel, L&L, and other companies are charging luxury prices for freaking 4 ounce SOFT SOAPS.  We aren't talking about Tabac, DR Harris, MWF which have lasted me forever since my initial purchase due to their hardness we are talking about soaps that have only lasted me two seasons among a large rotation of soap. Latha Oceana, Latha Limon, B&M Cologne Russe, B&M Adagio are all at the end of their run or donuting after buying them last year. I have barely scratched the surface of DR Harris and Tabac and I've had them longer and use them use as much as the aforementioned soaps.  Now 26.99 for a soap that might last me 30 or 40 shaves? We are jumping the shark ladies and gentlemen.

I have been called a lot of things in the last 29 hours, most of which dance around the phrase "satan worshiper," so I would like to bring this to the forefront: If you find it disturbing, then it is your prerogative not to buy it. But the numbers do not lie, and the Gothique launch is our largest ever, so obviously we have produced something that appeals to the masses. I will not apologize for my design, nor will I shy away from it. I am not a religious man (quite the opposite, in fact), and, while I did not seek to offend those of faith, I am in business to make money. If appealing to the darker inclinations of the wet shaving world is how I am to make my living, then so be it.

That said, the pricing has nothing to do with the base and everything to do with the fragrance ingredients. If you believe in the work that I do as a fragrance maker, then this is how it must continue. Fragrance is not inexpensive to produce. It took me seven months to compose Fougère Gothique, and its 46 components are both somewhat expensive and very time consuming to blend. It is not "jumping the shark" at all. It is a fair price for a good product that took a long time to create. If the price is not for you, then that's fine. I am happy to recommend something else, but please do not denigrate my efforts or my knowledge by assuming that I am charging a lot of out greed, incompetence, or both.

I really appreciate that you are pushing the envelope, and branching into new areas, Will!  Although I consider myself more of a fanboy to your "simpler" scents, it is truly fascinating to see you try something daring, and shortly after see an influx of artisans following suit with their offerings.

Although you certainly weren't the first to do a fougere, after your release of Aromatique and Imperiale, huge numbers of artisans started exploring them.  

Even though you weren't the first to offer a chypre, after Le Grande, suddenly other artisans were stepping up with their own interpretations.

So even though I will always miss Anise & Vetiver (PLEASE BRING IT BAAACK!), what you are doing is clearly influential and driving a lot of what is happening at the "avante garde" level of scents in the wetshaving arena.  With how well you marketed Fougere Gothique, who knows what we'll see in the next few months to a year?  More exciting things I hope!

A few simpler questions I had for you to wrap it up:

1) What is the "03" on the label to my LaVanille?  Formulation?

2) With a Pregosaurus Rex wife (yes I know I will be murdered in my sleep for saying that), I am limping along on the Speick aftershave since she can't do any of the Barrister's Reserve scents.  Please tell me the Caldey Island rendition is still on for September!  Will it be the same date as the LLCW?

3) Have you ever considered working with something like neroli?  I love all those hesperidic notes (specifically bergamot, petitgrain and neroli), and have always wondered what direction you would take it!

4) What's your favorite scent that has 5 notes or fewer?

Thanks so much again!

1) The three emblems of the Camargue Cross.
2) Not as an aftershave yet (production delays), but as a soap, definitely. Apologies.
3) I'm working on a fragrance that incorporates neroli as we speak.
4) I don't really think I have one? Simple scents tend not to be my thing.

"Now 26.99 for a soap that might last me 30 or 40 shaves? We are jumping the shark ladies and gentlemen."

Yes.

$6.75 an ounce. Wow.

Some of these softer soaps have a lot of water still in them. Sure we can cure them ourselves but I've noticed prices rising only with some artisans. I have been testing a new soap as good as any made today and that will be $19 delivered conus. Another one is a top 1-3 soap in performance and one gets over 5 ounces for $17.

We will see how long those folks stay in business. I have been doing this for longer than most, and, as you so adroitly pointed out on reddit yesterday, Barrister and Mann has grown fairly influential over the years. "Big," was the term I think you used. We didn't get that way by accident, and I can tell you that most, if not all, artisan shaving vendors do not charge enough for their products. Not by a long shot.

Barrister_N_Mann Taking a break from FG and looking ahead: As someone who never experienced the original scent of LLCW, how would you describe the balance between the scents? Is a particular scent more forward than the others?

The lavender and the cedar are more forward, but lime oil is so strong that it balances out quite well.

"Now 26.99 for a soap that might last me 30 or 40 shaves? We are jumping the shark ladies and gentlemen."

Yes.

$6.75 an ounce. Wow.

Some of these softer soaps have a lot of water still in them. Sure we can cure them ourselves but I've noticed prices rising only with some artisans. I have been testing a new soap as good as any made today and that will be $19 delivered conus. Another one is a top 1-3 soap in performance and one gets over 5 ounces for $17.

vtmax what do you think of this trend?  I've obviously stated how I feel about it but you have stated some facts about pricing increasing and I wonder where you stand? Are you cool with it?

EDIT: As a side note, if the soap lasted a minute I would not mind at all paying 17$ for 5 ounces.  See, when I look at a Stirling or a Soap Commander and I'm looking at 2.00 or 2.50 per ounce, and in the case of Soap Commander its a harder soap and it is lasting forever, that justifies value to me.  But when I use up a soap in a season or two and we are getting up on 5 and 6, even as much as $7 an ounce for a soft soap I have to take that into account.

That's your choice. As I mentioned above, it's not the cost of the soap. It's the cost of the fragrance.

The Reserve base is good.
I was simply pointing out there are other artisans I feel have superior soap bases at lower prices. We certainly will see how long those folks stay in business.

To all those offended by the artwork just keep in mind this exists and you shouldn't click it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-LH_VUROk

But this you can handle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P8zsSwA9vo

I hesitate to chime in particularly since I did such a poor job in the other fora.  But here goes.

I looked forward to purchasing the FG t-shirt like I did the previous Hallows shirts.  I skipped the FG shirt due to the presence of the devil, but perhaps not why you think.  I did use the term "glorify" the devil in prior posts, and it was probably the wrong term.  Ultimately, the FG T-shirt has no context.  If I were to go to a shave meet-up (not my style), I would proudly wear the shirt because virtually everyone I would encounter would understand the context and assume I was a B&M &/or Fougère Gothique fan.

Being a Christian, it is essential I don't do things that confuse the fact that I'm Christian to others.  The apostle Paul gets on my nerves quite a bit, but he made a good point when he said (paraphrasing),  "We all here, within this circle of believers know that meat is meat.  If we eat meat intended for sacrifice to idols, it's the same meat and it doesn't offend God, nor does it cause us harm.  However, if we're around a new believer, who has yet to attain this enlightenment, our eating this 'forbidden' meat in his presence may cause him to question everything he thought he knew.  I could cause him to stumble.  This is the exact opposite of what I'm supposed to be doing for this guy. I'm supposed to be supporting him and nurturing his faith.  And someday, in the Father's time, he'll be enlightened, too.  Therefore, if eating meat has the potential to cause this brother to stumble, then I'll never eat meat again."

That, and only that, is the reason I skipped the shirt.  It's just a devil, nothing else to provide context.  Design-wise, that's the best way to do it, too.  It is likely to provoke a question and then introduction to B&M products.  My faith simply told me it wasn't for me even though I think it's a design well done.

The bowl is cool, and I expect the EdP and AS bottles will be cool as well (we're ready to see those anytime, now, Barrister_N_Mann ), but I'll be using these in the privacy of my own home.

There are some whose convictions prohibit them from wearing anything that has even a loose representation of "the devil", and I very much respect that.  To those people, I say, do not succumb.  Pass on this.  You must not put aside your convictions...especially for something like this.

I have no problem wearing something like this:

[Image: vk6FNhs.jpg]

How many of you would take issue with dressing your infant in this?:

[Image: BlystAx.jpg]

Do we even think twice about buying this (well, maybe if you're not a deviled ham fan):

[Image: Ysr8Oip.jpg]

Remember, symbols carry different connotations with respect to context, experience, and culture.  A fair example is that of the swastika (look it up if you don't know).

I think Barrister_N_Mann has defended himself sufficiently, and I am not here to defend him, but I would ask those who are quick to grab the pitchfork to take a breath and think about this for a moment.  Do you really think they (the artisan and marketer) are really trying to promote satan?

And regarding the phrasing and descriptors used in the marketing of FG.  The whole thing is, thematically taken from Milton and Shakespeare, and in some cases are verbatim quotes.  If you weren't exposed to Paradise Lost or The Tempest, then it will be lost on you.

To all those offended by the artwork just keep in mind this exists and you shouldn't click it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-LH_VUROk

But this you can handle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P8zsSwA9vo

While I find both of those clips offensive on different grounds, I support and would defend your right to view them and to hold views consistent with that. Thats what makes countries like ours great.  While I personally don't like demonic imagery, there's nothing illegal about it and B&M is free to brand and market as they see fit.   We're free to express our opinions without fear of reprisal no matter how distasteful we may find one another's opinions to be. Remember, however, that Christians are easy to pick on.  We turn the other cheek.  If you want to be edgy, try taking on some of the other guys.

And I went and ordered the soap anyway, what does that make me?  I'm a soap whore, I admit it, I am weak.....or maybe I've fallen under some demonic enchantment rendering me powerless.    Maybe thats why I have more shaving soap than I could ever reasonably use.  

On the subject of price, I have no problem with artisans/soap makers making a decent profit.  When you think about the utility value and pleasure you get from a single tub of top notch artisan soap, I think its a bargain.  Seriously, the number of pleasurable, occasionally intoxicating shaves you get from a single tub, some of these would be a bargain at twice the price.

I have a question: will the matching aftershave be in Reserve line or regular one.

All these discussions about look of devil(as if anyone ever saw one),  turning the other cheek (coparnicus says hi) got my attention. And , reserve line is the best aftershave out there.

I will leave my pitchfork in the closet till Will decides to take on one true FSM, before that B&M has my money

EDIT: Looks like this ine will be in regular tonique.

To all those offended by the artwork just keep in mind this exists and you shouldn't click it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8-LH_VUROk

But this you can handle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P8zsSwA9vo

While I find both of those clips offensive on different grounds, I support and would defend your right to view them and to hold views consistent with that. Thats what makes countries like ours great.  While I personally don't like demonic imagery, there's nothing illegal about it and B&M is free to brand and market as they see fit.   We're free to express our opinions without fear of reprisal no matter how distasteful we may find one another's opinions to be. Remember, however, that Christians are easy to pick on.  We turn the other cheek.  If you want to be edgy, try taking on some of the other guys.  

And I went and ordered the soap anyway, what does that make me?  I'm a soap whore, I admit it, I am weak.....or maybe I've fallen under some demonic enchantment rendering me powerless.    Maybe thats why I have more shaving soap than I could ever reasonably use.  

On the subject of price, I have no problem with artisans/soap makers making a decent profit.  When you think about the utility value and pleasure you get from a single tub of top notch artisan soap, I think its a bargain.  Seriously, the number of pleasurable, occasionally intoxicating shaves you get from a single tub, some of these would be a bargain at twice the price.

Lol same here. The whole devil thing is not for me, but like you I'm probably going to order as well, for the scent and enjoyment of the shaves.


Hey I really liked that angel idea! I hope someone does it! Ha-ha

I'm looking forward to the arrival of all of the Fougere Gothique products I ordered. For me, the enjoyment I get from products like these delivers excellent value.

As for the rest of the discussion, I'm honestly not sure how I feel. I firmly believe everyone should be free to live their life as they see fit provided it does not diminish another's life. "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven," is a direct quote from Paradise Lost, written in 1667, and a fantastic book with many layers of meaning. I am, well, a bit saddened that we have discussions where the gist seems similar to what might have been discussed after the first printing of Paradise Lost 350 years ago.


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...Hey I really liked that angel idea! I hope someone does it! Ha-ha

Through The Fire Fine Craft has both a "Devil's Cut" and "Angel's Share" product. (I'm not impressed with the performance of TTFFC though.

The product packaging doesn't bother me. I understand it may bother some people.

The price is a little disconcerting. I have several B&M soaps and splashes and I like them very much. They are very good performers. That said, it's obvious by Will's comments and by the general popularity of the brand that B&M is probably selling more soaps than it ever has. Now if we are talking about a "one-off" with a slightly higher price tag that's one thing. An across the board price increase that size may be another entirely ( at least for me).

Haslingers has been around for a little while I think. Their stuff performs as well as anything else I've tried. Wonder how long they'll stay in business?