The Wet Shaving Market

It could hurt our artisan's in the same way that Wal-Mart wiped out Main Street in so many towns.

Many of those big box stores are now being wiped out by online sellers. Amazon is just a platform. Most of the retailers there are small businesses. The same for Etsy, on which there appears to be approximately 70 million artisan soapmakers. In the case of razors, the stainless steel razor makers are not in the same market as a Gillette safety razor would be. The general public is not going to shell out $200 for an artisan razor, especially if they have to go on a waiting list to get it.

It could also help them. I certainly don't think enthusiasts would abandon the artisans. It's possible it could help the artisan community grow by gaining cartridge converts that become enthusiasts.

How do we know that there are not a lot of cartridge wetshaving enthusiasts? Art of Shaving sells a lot of soaps, creams and aftershaves. People tend to go with what they find to be best, be it artisan or larger scale. What would you do if your favorite artisans became breakout successes and evolved into larger companies? Abandon them because they have somehow become evil and oppressive? The whole anti-corporate thing in the wetshaving subculture seems really strange to me. Big corporations provide jobs, too, and not all are evil.

Amazon as 'platform' is as disingenuous as UBER or it's apt rental counterpart are independent contractors free from regulation and union representation. When you openly analyze your delivery service ( UPS, FED EX, USPS) and declare intent to create your own based on their expertise, buy Whole Foods and a Newspaper to place your alternative news, or suppress it this is no platform but a monopoly built on the backs of it's working people with a execrable labor record that makes the gilded age robber barons look like saints.
Facts are facts and not subject to opinion. We are facing fewer and fewer jobs at stagnant and poverty line wages with ever decreasing benefits and dismantling of the government and state safety net. So forgive me for being anti corporate and having lunch at the local Jewish deli instead of talking to a robot at McBarfs and buying my shaving kit from friends.

Sudsy Soapery soap

What scent did you go with?  They are on my radar to try but most have said they are lightly scented.

I have Jack Frost and Sandalwood & Myrrh on the way, along with several other softwares I bought in the past few weeks. I'm very excited to say the least.

They too have been on my radar for quite some time.

I have high hopes for these. The prices looks very reasonable and based on the reviews I've been reading, many of those that tried their soaps are impressed. I'll keep you posted with the scent strength if you'd like.


OT: I also have P&B Imperial Rum on the way

It could hurt our artisan's in the same way that Wal-Mart wiped out Main Street in so many towns.

Many of those big box stores are now being wiped out by online sellers.  Amazon is just a platform.  Most of the retailers there are small businesses.  The same for Etsy, on which there appears to be approximately 70 million artisan soapmakers.  In the case of razors, the stainless steel razor makers are not in the same market as a Gillette safety razor would be.  The general public is not going to shell out $200 for an artisan razor, especially if they have to go on a waiting list to get it.

It could also help them.  I certainly don't think enthusiasts would abandon the artisans.  It's possible it could help the artisan community grow by gaining cartridge converts that become enthusiasts.  

How do we know that there are not a lot of cartridge wetshaving enthusiasts?  Art of Shaving sells a  lot of soaps, creams and aftershaves.  People tend to go with what they find to be best, be it artisan or larger scale.  What would you do if your favorite artisans became breakout successes and evolved into larger companies?  Abandon them because they have somehow become evil and oppressive?  The whole anti-corporate thing in the wetshaving subculture seems really strange to me.  Big corporations provide jobs, too, and not all are evil.

Good point.  Although not wet shaving this has been something common in say the music industry (I claim no experience-just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express ) where fans stopped liking bands when they got too big/went mainstream, sold out etc.  Now maybe music touches us at a deeper level than shaving soap but I think we could expect a portion of the "fan base" to feel betrayed etc. That feeling that we were there at the beginning when they were playing at some dive bar or when you were selling your soaps on Etsy and I took a chance on your soap. Hope this makes sense as I sometimes have trouble typing out what I am trying to express.

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How do we know that there are not a lot of cartridge wetshaving enthusiasts?  Art of Shaving sells a  lot of soaps, creams and aftershaves.  People tend to go with what they find to be best, be it artisan or larger scale.  What would you do if your favorite artisans became breakout successes and evolved into larger companies?  Abandon them because they have somehow become evil and oppressive?  The whole anti-corporate thing in the wetshaving subculture seems really strange to me.  Big corporations provide jobs, too, and not all are evil.
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I think Tbone's post makes some very good points.  I'm all for cartridge users taking advantage of a shaving brush with a soap or a cream.  

The portion I highlighted above is a general statement covering many companies.   Relative to wet shaving, I'm specifically concerned with Gillette.  I believe they have been fundamentally dishonest to their customers.  Their marketing dismissed classic shaving with a double edged safety razor and claimed that their cartridges are the best thing ever.  

The truth is that each of these means of shaving have advantages and disadvantages.  I really suffered in the 90s as I had to wear a suit and tie everyday.  I had really bad razor burn and irritation from the cartridges.  I don't have this same issue with classic shaving.  

As well, the innovation in classic shaving is coming from small businesses and artisans. Gillette stopped innovating when they came out with cartridges in my view.

This is why I have an issue with Gillette.  There are great large corporations and evil large corporations with most being somewhere in the middle.

only thing in the middle of the road are roadkill and yellow lines.

Good point.  Although not wet shaving this has been something common in say the music industry (I claim no experience-just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express ) where fans stopped liking bands when they got too big/went mainstream, sold out etc.  Now maybe music touches us at a deeper level than shaving soap but I think we could expect a portion of the "fan base" to feel betrayed etc. That feeling that we were there at the beginning when they were playing at some dive bar or when you were selling your soaps on Etsy and I took a chance on your soap. Hope this makes sense as I sometimes have trouble typing out what I am trying to express.

It makes sense, and I think you expressed yourself very well. What doesn't make sense, assuming the product does not change, is punishing a band or a soapmaker or any other business entity solely for being successful. IMHO, for people to support and root for artisans with great products to become successful is good. To turn on them when they do is unreasonable, as are people's feelings of betrayal. It is like rooting for a sports team and then being disappointed when they have a great season. Also, wetshavers can't seem to clearly define "artisan", so when should they start to avoid an artisan that has become too successful? Is there a know-your-place litmus test for the artisans? Is it even ethical or fair for us to define such a litmus test?

Relative to wet shaving, I'm specifically concerned with Gillette.  I believe they have been fundamentally dishonest to their customers.  Their marketing dismissed classic shaving with a double edged safety razor and claimed that their cartridges are the best thing ever.  

Companies large and small claim their products are the best thing since sliced bread. That is called marketing. In the case of double edge vs. cartridge safety razors, cartridge razors work best for some folks. In the wetshaving thread (on a non-wetshaving forum) that got me into traditional wetshaving, about half the people stated that cartridge razors gave them better shaves than double edge razors, and that they were never looking back. The other half said things much like this:

The truth is that each of these means of shaving have advantages and disadvantages.  I really suffered in the 90s as I had to wear a suit and tie everyday.  I had really bad razor burn and irritation from the cartridges.  I don't have this same issue with classic shaving.  

so you are far from being alone. That is something Gillette, Schick and Wilkinson have missed for a long time. Given that cartridge systems suck for you and many others, why wouldn't people welcome Gillette and other companies changing course and re-introducing safety razors? God created artisans and big corporations, but the Internet made them equal. So to speak.

As well, the innovation in classic shaving is coming from small businesses and artisans. Gillette stopped innovating when they came out with cartridges in my view.

What innovation? By the mid-1960s we had the Gillette Slim and the Wilkinson Sticky, not to mention a plethora of other excellent double edge razors. It is pretty hard to improve on outstanding. Most of the recent "innovation" I have seen is minor tweaks to the overall design or simply making the razors out of stainless steel. For soaps, there were great shaving soaps 70 years ago and many artisans are making great shaving soaps today. No innovation there, just the continued availability of top-quality shaving soaps.

Trac II cartridges worked pretty well for me, but I never liked the pivoting head razors. A lot of men did, however, and still do. For that reason, I think Gillette and Schick were innovative with their cartridge systems for quite some time. I agree with you completely that such innovation stopped a long time ago, replaced by gimmicks and advertising spin. Perhaps that is why Gillette is looking to safety razors and premium shaving products as a growth opportunity.

only thing in the middle of the road are roadkill and yellow lines.

Then it is a good thing shaving products manufacturers are not asphalt roadways. I just think that the "big or medium size company automatically bad, small company automatically good" notion is illogical. In my own experience, it is also grossly inaccurate.

Facts are facts and not subject to opinion.

And opinions are facts and not subject to facts.

We are facing fewer and fewer jobs at stagnant and poverty line wages with ever decreasing benefits and dismantling of the government and state safety net.

So it's the government's fault that artisans can't prosper? If you believe that, then why not vote for politicians who want to enact small business friendly policies? But that is politics, and doesn't have anything to do with traditional shaving.

As for the fewer jobs thing, the unemployment rate where I am at is 2 percent. That does not imply a universal lack of jobs. For business owners in areas without a lot of jobs, why would we want to punish them for being successful, growing and hiring more employees?

So forgive me for being anti corporate and having lunch at the local Jewish deli instead of talking to a robot at McBarfs and buying my shaving kit from friends.

So the huge multinational chain did not put the locally owned deli out of business? You just proved my point.

Any in depth reply would tip into politics and either censor or closing of the thread. I will reply simply with the socially conscious New York owner of several large parking units who has this painted on the side of one multi level unit. "The French Aristocracy didn't see it coming either."

Any in depth reply would tip into politics and either censor or closing of the thread. I will reply simply with the socially conscious New York owner of several large parking units who has this painted on the side of one multi level unit. "The French Aristocracy didn't see it coming either."

I can hardly blame the mods and admins for that policy. Traditional wetshaving has nothing to do with politics, dogma or office politics - shaving edition. Trying to inject those things is merely a distraction to the task at hand. Given that we can have Versailles luxury at a Wal Mart price, why would we worry? It doesn't get any better than that.

Relative to wet shaving, I'm specifically concerned with Gillette.  I believe they have been fundamentally dishonest to their customers.  Their marketing dismissed classic shaving with a double edged safety razor and claimed that their cartridges are the best thing ever.  

Companies large and small claim their products are the best thing since sliced bread.  That is called marketing.    Given that cartridge systems suck for you and many others, why wouldn't people welcome Gillette and other companies changing course and re-introducing safety razors?   God created artisans and big corporations, but the Internet made them equal.  So to speak.

The statement above highlighted in blue needs one change to make it correct:  That is called dishonest marketing.  I agree that you do clarify your view later in the posts.  While I agree that dishonest marketing is widespread, the are many, many companies that market via truthful statements.  I sell technology for a living.  My marketing is clear that I don't engage in dishonest marketing and that I'll share the good, bad and ugly of any products I represent.

I don't see classic shaving as a lost opportunity for them.  My opinion is that their actions are along the lines of, "Why engage in low margin classic shaving when we can lie and capture almost all of the market with high margin cartridges.

As well, the innovation in classic shaving is coming from small businesses and artisans. Gillette stopped innovating when they came out with cartridges in my view.

What innovation?  It is pretty hard to improve on outstanding.  Most of the recent "innovation" I have seen is minor tweaks to the overall design or simply making the razors out of stainless steel.  For soaps, there were great shaving soaps 70 years ago and many artisans are making great shaving soaps today.  No innovation there, just the continued availability of top-quality shaving soaps.

Trac II cartridges worked pretty well for me, but I never liked the pivoting head razors.  A lot of men did, however, and still do.  For that reason, I think Gillette and Schick were innovative with their cartridge systems for quite some time.  I agree with you completely that such innovation stopped a long time ago, replaced by gimmicks and advertising spin.  Perhaps that is why Gillette is looking to safety razors and premium shaving products as a growth opportunity.

It depends on how you view innovation.  I consider stainless razors to be innovation.  I absolutely consider the Muhle R41 razor head to be innovative.  I grudgingly admit that cartridges and and pivoting heads are innovative.  There are big innovations and incremental ones.  The artisans are making great incremental changes.

I personally view the OneBlade technology as innovation in line with safety razors and cartridges, though I do have concern about their ability to execute in a manner that allows them to become big in the way of safety razors and cartridges.  

Regarding soap.  My view is that there has been great innovation, though most of it is incremental.  There are many scents that weren't available years ago.  There are formula's that weren't available.  

There are really good soaps, such as Klar Seifen that have been around a very long time that are superb.  I enjoy, and feel that product quality is higher, with artisan soap compared to Mitchell's, Cella and Tabac.  Tabac has a great base, though the scent is rough.

I also think the artisan's produce very high quality soap at a price that is much less than the greats from the past.