Tallow or Vegan, and why?

Okay. I am gullible and naive I still don't get "which side do you dress on".

Please explain if it is not too delicate or embarrassing in translation.

Mickey (Duuhh)

On a creaminess scale of 1-10 , tallow is about a 5 with good moisturizing properties. This, at least on paper, is about the same level of creaminess as palm oil, or shea butter. Stearic acid, which is the primary ingredient of MdC, for example, rates at around 9 for creaminess. Obviously, there's a lot of other ingredients in shaving soaps which also contribute to its performance (or lack thereof). The ratios of those ingredients as well as preparation procedures, curing and other factors contribute to the quality of the final product. There are many wonderful tallow based soaps. I believe my personal favorites are Tabac and the B&M soaps. There are also some that don't measure up. Likewise, there are many top-tier soaps that don't have a speck of tallow in them. I guess what I'm saying is the magic isn't found in just one ingredient, but rather the sum of the parts plus expert crafting -- just like a great martini.

Okay. I am gullible and naive I still don't get "which side do you dress on".

Please explain if it is not too delicate or embarrassing in translation.

Mickey (Duuhh)

I'm pretty sure It's a polite way to ask which side your male member is on so when the tailor measures your inseam he doesn't bump into "you" and cause an awkward moment.

Okay. I am gullible and naive I still don't get "which side do you dress on".

Please explain if it is not too delicate or embarrassing in translation.

Mickey (Duuhh)

I'm pretty sure It's a polite way to ask which side your male member is on so when the tailor measures your inseam he doesn't bump into "you" and cause an awkward moment.

Yep. Doesn't work well as a pick-up line. (Some things you just learn the hard way.)

Back to the topic, some of this discussion reminds me of an earlier thread theorizing that those with oily skin may prefer vegan soaps (which tend toward "drier" feeling) and those with drier skin may do better with tallow or super-fatted soaps. But in discussion it became clear that super-fatting with moisturizing components needn't involve animal-derived ingredients. I'm also remembering a bit Barrister_N_Mann wrote for his newsletter about tallow, and if I recall, tallow is more about adding a particular texture rather than specific moisturizing qualities. (It's probably notable that Will adds shea, lanolin, and kokum, not to mention allantoin, as well).

On a  creaminess scale of 1-10 , tallow is about a 5 with good moisturizing properties. This, at least on paper, is about the same level of creaminess as palm oil, or shea butter. Stearic acid, which is the primary ingredient of MdC, for example, rates at around 9 for creaminess. Obviously, there's a lot of other ingredients in shaving soaps which also contribute to its performance (or lack thereof).  The ratios of those ingredients as well as preparation procedures, curing and other factors contribute to the quality of the final product.  There are many wonderful tallow based soaps.   I believe my personal favorites are Tabac and the B&M soaps. There are also some that don't measure up.  Likewise, there are many top-tier soaps that don't have a speck of tallow in them.  I guess what I'm saying is the magic isn't found in just one ingredient, but rather the sum of the parts plus expert crafting -- just like a great martini.

Most shaving soaps have stearic acid, and it is often the first and largest ingredient. This is the case with many tallow soaps too. The primary thing to consider with fats/oils is their fatty acid profile. Stearic acid for example has a 99 in creamy due to it having a stearic value of 99% and a 0% in all other fatty acids. However, beef tallow contains 2% lauric, 6% myristic, 28% palmitic, 22% stearic, 36% oleic, 3% linoleic, and 1% linolenic. Thus, tallow will provide a creamy and stable lather, good conditioning, mild cleansing, and it will contribute to a harder bar. How a soap performs is based on the fatty acids that make up each ingredient. I am not a chemist, and some soap makers don't care about the chemistry side of soap making, however I do look to the fatty acid values when making my bath soap recipes, and I suspect many soap makers do when making shaving soaps. With that said, I agree that tallow is not the magic ingredient making the difference between tallow and non-tallow soaps, but I do believe it is a good ingredient that offers benefits to a soap.

The link below is a good source for finding the fatty acid values of each fat/oil.
http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

On a  creaminess scale of 1-10 , tallow is about a 5 with good moisturizing properties. This, at least on paper, is about the same level of creaminess as palm oil, or shea butter.

Just to clarify, none of these substances are really moisturizing once saponified, since they become salts.
Of course, (unsaponified) shea butter (and the like), are added for moisturization - I'm now aware of any soap containing added (unsaponified) tallow.

Obviously, there's a lot of other ingredients in shaving soaps which also contribute to its performance (or lack thereof).  The ratios of those ingredients as well as preparation procedures, curing and other factors contribute to the quality of the final product...the magic isn't found in just one ingredient, but rather the sum of the parts plus expert crafting -- just like a great martini.

Indeed.

On a  creaminess scale of 1-10 , tallow is about a 5 with good moisturizing properties. This, at least on paper, is about the same level of creaminess as palm oil, or shea butter.

Just to clarify, none of these substances are really moisturizing once saponified, since they become salts.
Of course, (unsaponified) shea butter (and the like), are added for moisturization - I'm now aware of any soap containing added (unsaponified) tallow.

Perhaps the information below will help those interested to better understand how fatty acids (the chemical components of oils and butters) provide unique characteristics in soap.

Soap is a chemical substance, created by combining fatty acids, an alkali and heat in a water medium. Fatty acids are chemical components of oils ("oils" includes fats and butters, too). There are various fatty acid varieties, each differing in molecular composition. When used in soapmaking, each fatty acid variety will make a soap that has its own unique characteristics. Different oils used in soapmaking have differing proportions of these various fatty acids. Therefore, chosen "recipe" combinations of specific oils mixed together in soapmaking can result in combined fatty acids compositions tailored to make soaps with desired characteristics. An understanding of this ability to tailor our oils mix and thereby control our fatty acids mix is essential in designing successful soap recipe formulas. I know this is a rather "heavy" paragraph, but please read it carefully as understanding this is crucial to being able to best use the information presented below.

Source: http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/prope...aking-oils

Indeed, Hobbyist, not all fatty acids are the same; they are chosen based on properties of latherability/cleansing ability, creaminess, hardness, et cetera.
Of course, none of the (bare) saponified fatty acids will be be of much help, in terms of offsetting the stripping of natural skin oils (assuming the product lathers/cleanses properly), compared to added (unsaponified) emollients (for example, glycerin, mango butter, etc.).
(Even stearate-containing soaps, require something like glycerin.)

Indeed, Hobbyist, not all fatty acids are the same; they are chosen based on properties of latherability/cleansing ability, creaminess, hardness, et cetera.
Of course, none of the (bare) saponified fatty acids will be be of much help, in terms of offsetting the stripping of natural skin oils (assuming the product lathers/cleanses properly), compared to added (unsaponified) emollients (for example, glycerin, mango butter, etc.).
(Even stearate-containing soaps, require something like glycerin.)

Good points. All artisan soaps have glycerin in them since it is a by-product from the saponification process, but some soap makers add more glycerin to the soap. Store brands often extract the glycerin and sell it, which is probably the reason I never had much luck with finding a moisturizing bar form the stores, and why I started making soap. Glycerin being a humectant will attract moisture to the skin, thus soaps can be moisturizing without having significant superfatting, but of course superfatting is best. I've never tried making a soap without superfatting so I can't speak from experience how well it would work out. It isn't really a good idea to do so because you never know how accurate the soap calculator is or the quality of the oils. If any lye gets left over you have a lye heavy soap and burning skin.

I usually add 5% superfat to my recipes, and I add all of the oils at once typically, as opposed to adding the superfat oils after the saponification process has started. The only exception is when I use carrier oils for specific essential/fragrance oils that are hard to work with. I make soaps via cold process though, so my soap continues saponification for 1 to 2 days after it's poured, whereas shaving soaps are made via the hot process which speeds up the saponification process and therefore may provide incentive for adding the superfat oils later in the cooking, such as when the essential/fragrance oils are added. I've never made soap via the hot process so I don't know.