Soap Operas

We live in a world where every single piece of known information is readily available to any individual that wants to learn.  And educated individual can be truly educated in the highest sense of the word without ever leaving the comfort of their own living room.  

Ahh no. And its interesting you brought this up as it was a subject of a recent Skeptic Guides to the  Universe episode. http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu  Some people might "think" they are getting a college education but they are not. They will never go into the depth, have the interaction, be peered reviewed, do the lab work, etc. That is an illusion of the "internet age".

You can choose to believe what you want but there is no substitute for a formal education. You don't got to college to actually learn anything. You go to know where to look up the answers and to get connections. A big deal in the academic world is the illusion of false peered reviewed papers. The scams are everywhere. Google it. One example http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJ...#t=article  editorial checks spotted fake email addresses, and subsequent internal investigations uncovered fabricated peer review reports,  The Internet allows this to happen.

You can disagree. Its fine. But don't think for a second that one can get the same education from sitting at home reading the internet as actual formal education. And if you don't see the discrimination in the world between different universities, then its not part your world, but its very real. The "good schools" get the better salaries.  A lot of it is being "legacies".

Good breeding, you know. It might not be 1800 England but if you think these class distinctions don't still exist, go over to the Ivy school world and see if they don't talk a lot about legacies and who goes to what college to get the better starting salary. If  you don't think it matters, read this list

https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/grad

Its very real. Look at the starting salaries starting for graduate school ranging from $122K to $38K and tell me it doesn't matter. That's real life.

I'm not going to turn this into a debate about the legitimacy of a D- Harvard degree vs a dedicated and motivated self-educator with an internet connection and a drive to improve themselves every day.

I disagree with you. I do not automatically place value on a formal education, Ivy League or otherwise. There are an awful lot of "Ivy League Idiots" out there with legacy degrees, thriving off of a family name without ever lifting a finger or learning something new...

I do find it interesting, however, that your primary measurement of an individual's education is their financial gain, rather than their actual ability to think, infer, rationalize, and create...

What happened to the soap thread?

Someone has to get the last word guys, you both can't have it.

grim, I bet you received an A+ in kindergarten for not coloring outside the lines.

All kidding aside, once again, I do not dispute your definition of the word gentleman.  However, English, probably more than most languages, is one that is constantly in flux and is amazing in its adaptability.  I think the common usage of the word, to mean a man who is cordial and polite, is accepted and understood by most and is the way it is most used today.  The word silly originally meant happy, fortuitous, prosperous.  (I knew it's original meaning was different than how the word is used today but I actually had to look up its etymology.)  Today, I cannot imagine anyone who speaks English not accepting it to mean foolish or absurd.  It is this constant flux and adaptation that makes English so fascinating and, at the same time, so frustrating.  Frankly, I wouldn't want it any other way.

At least we changed the channel to a different soap opera.

https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/grad

Not quite.

It's well known within the Ivy League that Dartmouth graduates are the highest paid upon graduation. They have been for years and the other 7 institutions readily admit this.

A plowman on his legs is higher than a gentleman on his knees

That's not praise for gentleman. That's Ben Franklin slamming Gentleman saying a hard worker is better than a rich fat cat living on his inheritance.  

That is the dictionary citing an example of clownish, undignified behavior.

men of education and of good breeding,

What does "education have to do with" good manners? Its a means to slam those who not only don't have college degrees but those not from the "better schools" (think Ivy league).

Using manners as a means to put down others is quite rude, and is the mark of a boor, not a gentleman. In 1828, many people were illiterate and unschooled in even basic mathematics. If you can read this, you would be considered educated by early 19th century standards. Anyone who has attended high school would be considered very well educated indeed.

What does "good breeding" mean? This should be obvious. We have no titles but it means "rich". Not the nouveau rich but old money - inherited money. As Ben Franklin said, its better to work hard that sit around idly as "Gentlemen". Young ladies sought men "of good breeding". This is inherited wealth.

"Good breeding" means that there are no cows, goats or sheep in one's family tree. Horses are fine, but only if they are Throroughbreds. Ok, seriously, it means a person who comes from a respectable, well-mannered family. Two-hundred years ago, that was important. That does not necessarily mean wealthy or anything more than very modest means, only that they are not thieves, indolent or posessing other bad character traits. In short, from a family that instilled good values and good manners in their offspring.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph...20breeding

You are citing blathering by a bunch of smart alecks as defining the English language? Urban Dictionary is funny as hell to read, but mostly nothing more than comedy. At least one of their observations on "gentlemanly" behavior is spot on, though.

All gentleman are not polite
All polite people are not gentleman.

The former is incorrect. Any man who is not polite hardly qualifies as a gentleman. Many polite people might not conisder themselves gentlemen, but there are plenty of others who would think they are.

Rather, its  catchphrase the industry has hijacked to go along with an old fashioned idea that Wet Shaving is somehow noble rather than doing what the common man might do with an electric razor or cartridge. I see how some who "traditional wet shave" look down on those that merely "wet shave" and those that wet shave look down on "dry shaving: or used "canned goo". Just think about the words "canned goo", a phrase used extensively in this hobby to demean those that don't use traditional tools. Yet they are "gentleman?" Really? Do gentleman look down at the tools of others?

To people who have found something they like much better than canned gel, it could then seem like canned goo. It always seemed like canned goo to me, but I used to use it because it worked better than canned foam. Criticizing others because they used canned gel or foam... nah, not gentlemanly at all. I am sure there are folks who look down on others for using an electric or cartrige razor, just as there are those who think that we are preening nutbars for using a brush, soap and a safety or straight razor. That is pretty funny, a shaving class system, not to mention a little odd.

Its a phrase I found  just weird, in this day and time. It brings up a class structure. Just look how its used in posts. They start

"HI Gents ....

(text)

Thanks Gents"

4. A term of complaisance. In the plural, the appellation by which men are addressed in popular assemblies, whatever may be their condition or character.

Anyways, this is kind of like debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, or how many badgers can fit on the edge of a blade. If you don't consider yourself a gentleman, so be it. If you have good manners, though, don't be surprised if others see you as one. It is a compliment, not a slight.

What happened to the soap thread?

Someone has to get the last word guys, you both can't have it.

Lol, the same thing that happened to the eBay thread. The moral of the story is that if you find a $500 shaving soap for sale on eBay, act like a gentleman. There won't be any discount, but at least you can say "I was a gentlemanly gentleman, and am therefore at the pinnacle of the wetshaving world."

Traditional wetshaving is getting silly, so I think I will toddle on down the the Art of Shaving store. That alone should qualify me as a barbarian, philistine and degenerate.

I guess I didn’t explain this correctly. Of course the words “gentlemanly behavior” makes sense with a current connotation of being polite. What your not seeing, and what I object to, is the hijacking of the term to create artificial bonds that make no sense.

There is nothing inherent to “gentlemen” and shaving OTHER than the concept of “gentlemen” were shaved by what they considered to be the  lower classes. Listen to The Art of Manliness episode of the Knights of the Razor. Whether it was the man -servent for Victorian Gentlemen or African Americans or Italian Immigrants to today there are many Asian women, all doing barbering, barbering was consider a lower social class.

Within this current bubble, I don’t know who did the propaganda job but Bernays would have been proud. When I first read this rally cry, that is, “WE ARE GENTLEMEN”, I thought – what? Who cares? And what does that even mean and exactly what does it have to do with shaving???

Yet within this world, I see very “ungentlemen” behavior from “some”.

Some look down upon those that dry shave

Some look down upon those who wet shave but do not use a straight edge or safety razor only using cartridges or disposables

Some look down upon those that use “canned goo” and use this and other degratory terms for products “they” consider inferior.

And then there is the altar to the “artisans”, which I don’t understand, when at least I see commercial products that are better than “artisans”, yet a class distinction exists there.

I see the word Gentlemen used as a rally flag, yet the behavior not really there for some and that is where I am coming from. It makes no sense OTHER than a rally flag, a means to create a virtual bond in a non-physical world. Yes, we are gentlemen, we are kind, polite, and have manners, that is unless we don’t like the tools others use and we consider inferior, in which case we come up with demeaning terms and create class distinctions.  Ahh Bernays, he was a genius. its all about propaganda and marketing.  And the funny thing is, "we" are in the minority.

By using this term, the community INFERS that those who do not traditional wet shave are NOT gentlemen. That's not an accident. If you exhibit gentlemen's behavior in the common sense, then

Don't tell me canned shaving cream is goo. "we" are in the minority. The Majority disagrees with "us".

Don't look down upon those who use cartridges as heathens and the uninformed. Educate them, sure, but don't insult them

Don't pretend Dry Shaving doesn't exist.

Don't look down upon those who do NOT use "artisan" products but prefer widely available and cheaper commercial products. As many will claim, you can shave with about anything. Whats the point of wasting money on "artisan" soaps when Arko or Proraso works just fine?

I think the point has been made. Using a term from the past to create a rallying flag artificially creates a class structure that has negative meanings from the past. At least pick a different word without negative connotations.

I guess I didn’t explain this correctly. Of course the words “gentlemanly behavior” makes sense with a current connotation of being polite. What your not seeing, and what I object to, is the hijacking of the term to create artificial bonds that make no sense.

There is nothing inherent to “gentlemen” and shaving OTHER than the concept of “gentlemen” were shaved by what they considered to be the  lower classes. Listen to The Art of Manliness episode of the Knights of the Razor. Whether it was the man -servent for Victorian Gentlemen or African Americans or Italian Immigrants to today there are many Asian women, all doing barbering, barbering was consider a lower social class.

Within this current bubble, I don’t know who did the propaganda job but Bernays would have been proud. When I first read this rally cry, that is, “WE ARE GENTLEMEN”, I thought – what? Who cares? And what does that even mean and exactly what does it have to do with shaving???

Yet within this world, I see very “ungentlemen” behavior from “some”.

Some look down upon those that dry shave

Some look down upon those who wet shave but do not use a straight edge or safety razor only using cartridges or disposables

Some look down upon those that use “canned goo” and use this and other degratory terms for products “they” consider inferior.

And then there is the altar to the “artisans”, which I don’t understand, when at least I see commercial products that are better than “artisans”, yet a class distinction exists there.

I see the word Gentlemen used as a rally flag, yet the behavior not really there for some and that is where I am coming from. It makes no sense OTHER than a rally flag, a means to create a virtual bond in a non-physical world. Yes, we are gentlemen, we are kind, polite, and have manners, that is unless we don’t like the tools others use and we consider inferior, in which case we come up with demeaning terms and create class distinctions.  Ahh Bernays, he was a genius. its all about propaganda and marketing.  And the funny thing is, "we" are in the minority.

By using this term, the community INFERS that those who do not traditional wet shave are NOT gentlemen. That's not an accident. If you exhibit gentlemen's behavior in the common sense, then

Don't tell me canned shaving cream is goo. "we" are in the minority. The Majority disagrees with "us".

Don't look down upon those who use cartridges as heathens and the uninformed. Educate them, sure, but don't insult them

Don't pretend Dry Shaving doesn't exist.

Don't look down upon those who do NOT use "artisan" products but prefer widely available and cheaper commercial products. As many will claim, you can shave with about anything. Whats the point of wasting money on "artisan" soaps when Arko or Proraso works just fine?

I think the point has been made. Using a term from the past to create a rallying flag artificially creates a class structure that has negative meanings from the past. At least pick a different word without negative connotations.

You don't see any of that nonsense here, at least not in any broad sense or beyond the short shelf-life of an individual that will quickly fall away from this forum.

Your entire argument is based on BS that happens in places OTHER THAN DFS. So why bring that "soap opera nonsense" here?

And please...try to understand that one man's podcast is another man's venting. I don't care how historically accurate an individual might be, a podcast and a blog are opinions that define neither an industry nor a pattern of behavior. I do not base my life and vocabulary choices on whether or not a dictionary from 1890 would approve, and I do not base my behavior and preferences on whether or not some stranger doing a podcast will approve.

I base my behavior and preferences on whether or not I approve. I treat people how I want to be treated, and as far as I can tell, on this forum at least, most of us act in a similar fashion.

Hating the use of a word because of a small minority of individuals abusing the word as a means of positioning themselves higher in a fantasy hierarchy that only exists in their mind is equally silly to making up a hierarchy to place yourself atop of. Debating incessantly using 150 year old definitions to support this idea of division and insult inherent in a word, is equally silly.

You have made the classic mistake of attributing characteristics of a word globally when such characteristics are not universal. You insist that the word itself is indicative of insult and inherently divisive, but this is utter nonsense. CLEARLY the word "gentlemen" can be used in an endearing, respectful, polite, and appreciative manner. CLEARLY this manner of usage is more popular in a forum such as DFS. CLEARLY the number of people using the word "gentlemen" as a means of divisive insult are in the minority, by a long shot.

Logically, your arguments apply only to a narrow subsection of the wet shaving community, rather than to the entirety of the hobby as a whole. There is no definition of the word that is going to change the modern perception that it means "a man of honor and respectability". I don;t care if you go back to the transitional period between Latin/English/Germanic separation that helped to evolve these different languages. You still aren't going to find a universal definition that applies today in the way you want it to apply.

Your issues with the word are clearly personal, and are not, as you seem to want to insist, indicative of a greater problem within the wet shaving community. At least it is not indicative of a problem that cannot be escaped without leaving the hobby behind...

All you have to do is be a little more selective in the public forums within which you participate. Problem solved...

guys, are we REALLY arguing over what the word 'gentlemen' means?!

I'm closing this for a few days so everyone can cool off...