SN putting cap prices on M&F brushes

Have I missed something here? I thought the op was about putting a cap on the price of goods sold in the bst on a different forum. Am I wrong?

To that end, it is common practice on all the forums that are owned and/or paid for by vendors. It rides right up there with not allowing honest discussions and reviews. Its just the way it works when a forum is more focused on making money and selling prosucts than it is on forming a community and helping people.

There is an easy way to avoid the bad taste those questionable ethics leave in your mouth...


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This is a tough issue to tackle in a forum, no matter who is running it.  I have a lot of disagreement with various mods and forums, as well as how they set guidelines/rules that seem to apply unevenly, but this is a case where the rationale makes a lot of sense to me.

Just consider:

• If a forum truly is dedicated to helping out a community and fostering a better hobby and
  
• If you have a problem with the focus in forums being on making money and selling products...
  

... Then you need to really consider that there is a very serious issue with M&F markups.  Lee is nigh impossible to contact, unless you are one of the "chosen people" who constantly claim they have no issue in that area.  To give you an idea on this point, I have had one successful contact, out of perhaps 30+ attempts.  My story doesn't seem to be terribly unusual, but then you have folks who seem to buy new M&F brushes regularly and have 20+ brushes.

Whatever the reason, a select few have a seemingly direct line to Lee, which gives them a massive opportunity in an unregulated market.  They have the ability to basically flip brushes as a pseudo-vendor if they want (and some have in the past), adding a 20% markup of their own.  Ignoring for a moment the grey area created between a vendor and a hobbyist, think about this situation!

By exploiting the unavailability of Lee and by monetizing their own connections to the man, these folks are pricing lots of us out of M&F brushes by hefty margins.  How does this foster a better hobby and community?  It doesn't, it does the opposite by artificially creating an "elite" product that is only accessible by high prices.

Additionally, you can't criticize a forum for being obsessed with selling products and making money when they are making efforts to lower prices on products that no official vendor or hobbyist actually sells as a retailer.  That just doesn't make sense.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to talk about TSN and how threads critical of M&F or Lee seem to magically get locked and disappear instantly, while threads on others like Tiki or MW or others are gleefully piled on...

I agree with you. I dont have a problem with forums limiting the price in the BST. Example, at B&B they require 40% of retail maximum. They helpsvto foster a sense of community, where the focus is to provide people with products at a reduced rate. I totally get that.

But that doesnt change the fact that they only do this so their vendors can sell on the site. Good rule, questiinable reasoning. But. Admit I am biased aginst that particular site.

A bigger gripe for me is when a site prevents people frombdiscussing the positive merits of a brand because they are teying to hawk a different brand at 3times the cost, si they block, delte, and ban anyone that doesnt toe the line and decry the virtues of the inexpensive...

I didnt mean to imply that I take issue with limiting the costs on a BST. It does make sense to a certain extent. But it is just one more reason I prefer the free-er spirit here than "there"...Im a big boy capable of deciding if I like a price or not, and I like that DFS allows us all to be adults...

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk

Have I missed something here? I thought the op was about putting a cap on the price of goods sold in the bst on a different forum. Am I wrong?

To that end, it is common practice on all the forums that are owned and/or paid for by vendors. It rides right up there with not allowing honest discussions and reviews. Its just the way it works when a forum is more focused on making money and selling prosucts than it is on forming a community and helping people.

There is an easy way to avoid the bad taste those questionable ethics leave in your mouth...


Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk

This is a tough issue to tackle in a forum, no matter who is running it.  I have a lot of disagreement with various mods and forums, as well as how they set guidelines/rules that seem to apply unevenly, but this is a case where the rationale makes a lot of sense to me.

Just consider:

• If a forum truly is dedicated to helping out a community and fostering a better hobby and
  
• If you have a problem with the focus in forums being on making money and selling products...
  

... Then you need to really consider that there is a very serious issue with M&F markups.  Lee is nigh impossible to contact, unless you are one of the "chosen people" who constantly claim they have no issue in that area.  To give you an idea on this point, I have had one successful contact, out of perhaps 30+ attempts.  My story doesn't seem to be terribly unusual, but then you have folks who seem to buy new M&F brushes regularly and have 20+ brushes.

Whatever the reason, a select few have a seemingly direct line to Lee, which gives them a massive opportunity in an unregulated market.  They have the ability to basically flip brushes as a pseudo-vendor if they want (and some have in the past), adding a 20% markup of their own.  Ignoring for a moment the grey area created between a vendor and a hobbyist, think about this situation!

By exploiting the unavailability of Lee and by monetizing their own connections to the man, these folks are pricing lots of us out of M&F brushes by hefty margins.  How does this foster a better hobby and community?  It doesn't, it does the opposite by artificially creating an "elite" product that is only accessible by high prices.

Additionally, you can't criticize a forum for being obsessed with selling products and making money when they are making efforts to lower prices on products that no official vendor or hobbyist actually sells as a retailer.  That just doesn't make sense.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to talk about TSN and how threads critical of M&F or Lee seem to magically get locked and disappear instantly, while threads on others like Tiki or MW or others are gleefully piled on...

You make some good points, but as our own TSEvangelist likes to say, "follow the money to get to the truth." On certain forums, it's not unpredictable which brands get promoted and which brands get silenced. Motivations don't need to be benevolent in order for it to be in their interest to support this policy, especially when there is a close connection to certain vendors and artisans that could otherwise be drawing that cash.

Moreover, in my view genuine community is organic, not managed like opinions in North Korea. I do understand your point about how some have access to Lee while others don't, but it's the same situation with any product with limited supply, and whether or not those are regulated is similarly arbitrary.

This policy makes sense, but only to some extent, if one is a fan of arbitrarily regulated markets, and only if one trusts those who are administering the rules. Quite frankly, I have absolutely no confidence or trust in them whatsoever, and therefore I find the policy to be asinine and self-serving.

Edit: BadDad articulated that point effectively in the above post.

I agree with you. I dont have a problem with forums limiting the price in the BST. Example, at B&B they require 40% of retail maximum. They helpsvto foster a sense of community, where the focus is to provide people with products at a reduced rate. I totally get that.

But that doesnt change the fact that they only do this so their vendors can sell on the site. Good rule, questiinable reasoning. But. Admit I am biased aginst that particular site.

A bigger gripe for me is when a site prevents people frombdiscussing the positive merits of a brand because they are teying to hawk a different brand at 3times the cost, si they block, delte, and ban anyone that doesnt toe the line and decry the virtues of the inexpensive...

I didnt mean to imply that I take issue with limiting the costs on a BST. It does make sense to a certain extent. But it is just one more reason I prefer the free-er spirit here than "there"...Im a big boy capable of deciding if I like a price or not, and I like that DFS allows us all to be adults...

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk

I'm in perfect agreement with you on the brand stuff, the vendors being "protected" and opinion patrolling. I know that Will from B&M has detailed this, as have a few others, and how it sometimes feels extortionary on forums.

It's always interesting to see that when a new thread pops up with the "next big thing" and tons of accolades from established members, you can bet a vendor either just started retailing it or is about to.

I agree with you. I dont have a problem with forums limiting the price in the BST. Example, at B&B they require 40% of retail maximum. They helpsvto foster a sense of community, where the focus is to provide people with products at a reduced rate. I totally get that.

But that doesnt change the fact that they only do this so their vendors can sell on the site. Good rule, questiinable reasoning. But. Admit I am biased aginst that particular site.

A bigger gripe for me is when a site prevents people frombdiscussing the positive merits of a brand because they are teying to hawk a different brand at 3times the cost, si they block, delte, and ban anyone that doesnt toe the line and decry the virtues of the inexpensive...

I didnt mean to imply that I take issue with limiting the costs on a BST. It does make sense to a certain extent. But it is just one more reason I prefer the free-er spirit here than "there"...Im a big boy capable of deciding if I like a price or not, and I like that DFS allows us all to be adults...

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk

I'm in perfect agreement with you on the brand stuff, the vendors being "protected" and opinion patrolling. I know that Will from B&M has detailed this, as have a few others, and how it sometimes feels extortionary on forums.

It's always interesting to see that when a new thread pops up with the "next big thing" and tons of accolades from established members, you can bet a vendor either just started retailing it or is about to.

Nailed it. That's why I don't trust them to do much of anything, including price patrols and regulations.

I find all of your points well taken.  However, on a site like ours, where merchants are regular members, as well, and where members are free to mention and recommend any shaving product, then I don't see a reasonably fair price cap as necessarily a bad thing.  Let's say that because Tim's Soaps is no longer in business his shaving soaps are in demand.  If the soap originally sold for $14.00 and someone wants $25.00, including CONUS shipping, for an unused tub, I have no problem with that.  However, if that same person is trying to sell that tub for $50.00 or $75.00 then, yes, I do have a problem.  As I pointed out earlier, that is where auction sites, such as eBay, come in.  I find it incredibly distasteful to "make a killing" on a site such as ours.  I also worry about newbies who may not know what they are getting into.  To me, people who are trying to make large profits are not what a hobbyist site should be about.  It should be about helping each other and the B/S/T can, and should be, a big part of that.

Also, by not having a reasonable cap, a site can draw 'members' who do nothing but post on the B/S/T and, ultimately, offer nothing to the growth of the site.  I do not see that as a good thing and it may end up giving the site a somewhat unsavory reputation, especially if too many of the items are priced outlandishly.  Yes, it is up to the buyer to decide what is fair but as far as the way the rest of the community sees us, perception means a lot.

Let me finish by stating that my comments are mine as a member.  The fact that I am a moderator here simply does not come into play.  For a cap to occur, the administrator and moderators would have to meet to discuss this, if agreed then a cap would have to be decided upon, the rule would have to be added to what we already have, and said rule would have to be announced to the membership.  Not one of these things has happened and the subject has not even been brought up.  Let's hope that at DFS, at least, fair play prevails.

Well said Freddy I think fair play is all we can ask and hope for.

Interesting opinions gentlemen. I have to say though that in regard to the question at hand, ie the price of Morris & Forndran brushes, the TSN rule makes complete and perfect sense and in my mind is entirely fair in every sense of the word. I understand there are a lot of emotions close to the surface about the management of TSN and I am not commenting at all about any of those issues/rules/banning, simply the price cap on M&F brushes. I am struggling to understand how it could be viewed as unfair to anyone involved. Help me understand your opinions on the M&F brush price cap, not the rest of the issues you perceive with TSN.

Interesting opinions gentlemen.  I have to say though that in regard to the question at hand, ie the price of Morris & Forndran brushes, the TSN rule makes complete and perfect sense and in my mind is entirely fair in every sense of the word.  I understand there are a lot of emotions close to the surface about the management of TSN and I am not commenting at all about any of those issues/rules/banning, simply the price cap on M&F brushes.  I am struggling to understand how it could be viewed as unfair to anyone involved.  Help me understand your opinions on the M&F brush price cap, not the rest of the issues you perceive with TSN.

I made an account at TSN, and never visited. I take no issue with any of their rules or activities because I don't participate there. No experience, no bad taste.

Regarding the price capping on the M&F brushes:

In my humble opinion, a price cap should be universal, if applied. I don't think it is fair to say, "You cannot charge more than 15% above retail for an M&F brush" while others are allowed to double or triple their investment on other brands or products.

At the end of the day, fairness rules my roost. A sale is a sale, and a product is a product. Saying that no product can be sold for more than a certain percentage of retail is fine by me. Saying that Product A cannot be sold for more than $XXX.XX, while other products go unregulated seems unfair.

For clarification, I have no idea how the price cap is enforced or even applied at TSN. Again...no experience, no bad taste...just an opinion based on what I believe to be an issue of fairness vs. favoritism, regardless of the forum upon which it takes place...

I understand the desire to keep the issues separate, however my support (or lack of support) for any such rules would be highly dependent on the structure and character of the admin/moderation team.

When it comes to the application of power, it definitely matters who is in charge :p.

I should also add that such caps are inherently arbitrary. How do you calculate the value of an item in order to apply a maximum? Is it by MSRP? Sale price? Price in the US? Price in Europe? And so on. You folks get my point lol.

Since there is no retail pricing in the public domain, the forum made a realistic attempt at setting the prices. Lee is always free to add his input.
The OP is banned on TSN so perhaps there is another agenda here.