Shave review of Janus Adjustable razor and Shave Off vs Gillette F4 Toggle

Thanks for clarification Eric (Janus). Btw with all the parts that make up a Toggle are you putting them together by hand yourself or are the shops doing the assembly ? I’m sure you can make 50 yourself but once the standard version comes out you’ll need to train others as I hope you can get many future orders.

Thanks for clarification Eric (Janus). Btw with all the parts that make up a Toggle are you putting them together by hand yourself or are the shops doing the assembly ? I’m sure you can make 50 yourself but once the standard version comes out you’ll need to train others as I hope you can get many future orders.

Hey AJSharp you are correct, I could assembly like I did the prototypes. But I'm choosing to assemble together with the shop. The assembly costs are relatively small in the total cost of the product. So the cost penalty here is minor.

This is a learning opportunity for them and me as well. I'm going through these extra steps so that if regular production ever picks up, I have tested processes in place to do stuff right plus I get to know what my exact assembly costs are. Me seeing how others assemble will give me insights into how I could redesign the assembly tools to proof the assembly process.

Eric:
1.  I thought I had read earlier in this thread you said there would be a $250 or $300 deposit, yet it appears the full payment is due immediately.  Why the change?  How is what you did on DFS and different that the Kickstarter campaign...other than the razor is much, much smaller?
2.  Full payment up front, on a product that may not ship for 4 to 5 months.  Does that put potential buyers outside of any protection offered by PayPal?  What assurances are there that there will actually be razors built?
3.  Earlier in this thread, I believe you stated all refund requests would be honored.  You gave no stipulations.  Is that still your intent?  Refunds will be immediately returned, at any point prior to shipping?  Is there a "drop dead" refund request date?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Good questions LOOT. 

After the Kickstarter didn’t succeed, I had to think of other ways to make the parts without tooling. The Kickstarter costs and hence my pricing then assumed using some tools to produce blanks. Tools were for just blanks so not crazy expensive but nonetheless expensive for a small upstart. Tools make part price lower.

My reality is tool-less. No tooling costs mean high part costs.

My costs went up such that it didn’t make sense to have buyers pay partial and then the remaining at delivery. The difference was small. But I kept price the same. I chased cost reductions elsewhere to counter this. But areas to squeeze were few and far between. That is why it took a while for me to come back with the pricing for the Limited Edition Janus. We had to actually figure how to make these without tools and at what cost before I could take orders.  

I think most people see the $500 price, and automatically think my costs are $250 coz of ‘retail rules’. I’m generalizing here which I hate to do. First, one must find a crazy shop that wants to take this on knowing very well that the volumes are low, and the effort upfront might not pay off. Then one doesn’t necessarily pick the lowest quote either. Or the people that want to work with you might not be the cheapest. After this first batch, the shop and I will both know our exact costs. The shop will adjust his price accordingly, and I will adjust my selling price accordingly also to cover the final cost and a reasonable profit.

I’m using my own powder to cover refunds even midway through the project, milling, assembly and laser marking fixtures, and I’m producing slightly more than 51 just in case couple get scratched during assembly, I will still have 50 pristine units to send to customers. Still, only 50 will be out there.

There are lots of nuances and complexities in the project than meets the eye. I think one can’t simply guesstimate a razor’s cost from looking at another razor. For example, the nature of the Janus is such that everything is not produced under one roof. Surely, the machine shop does a bulk of the work.

Take one of my open razor renders and have 3 or so local shops give you quick estimate on the doors (qty 100). You will get a good reference on what things cost. Then add your values/philosophy on how you create and make stuff.

Most of the feedback I have received is on the wait time. Rightfully so, you and others have been implicit on price. I understand that concern. Some folks might be worried about the creator accountability like what you would find on Kickstarter. But then again, they didn’t support the Kickstarter when it was live. That is why I communicated in the newsletter that the ideal person is one who is comfortable with small reasonable hiccups and will stick around to the end…like I stuck through the design challenges when I was prototyping…

I can take you off the reserve list to make room for somebody who is considering jumping in. However, I would like to have you as a future customer when you are comfortable and I’m in regular production.

In a nutshell, it's a $500 leap of faith on a product that will deliver in 4-5 months.  Money will be refunded, but know it's coming out of the Eric's pocket. If you have any reservations, get it out of your system now and bail, or sit back and be quiet...especially if you didn't support the initial Kickstarter campaign. I think I got it.   Thanks.

For the record, I did not ask for a justification on the cost of the razor.  I don't care what your costs/profits are and I never made any assumptions of the subject (i don't think I did anyway).  I just went to pay thinking we were splitting the cost to find a bill for all of it.  It obviously didn't phase me, I paid it right away.  I was curious what I read wrong.  As to lead time, I really don't care how long that takes either.  I just want an heirloom quality product, with a mirror finish, that performs as well as the prototype must have for a the guys that got to try it.  I can be patient for that kind of product. 

I don't know why you jumped to "I can take you off the list".  I never implied I wanted a refund.  I just wanted to make sure I understood.  That's all.

Eric:
1.  I thought I had read earlier in this thread you said there would be a $250 or $300 deposit, yet it appears the full payment is due immediately.  Why the change?  How is what you did on DFS and different that the Kickstarter campaign...other than the razor is much, much smaller?
2.  Full payment up front, on a product that may not ship for 4 to 5 months.  Does that put potential buyers outside of any protection offered by PayPal?  What assurances are there that there will actually be razors built?
3.  Earlier in this thread, I believe you stated all refund requests would be honored.  You gave no stipulations.  Is that still your intent?  Refunds will be immediately returned, at any point prior to shipping?  Is there a "drop dead" refund request date?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Good questions LOOT. 

After the Kickstarter didn’t succeed, I had to think of other ways to make the parts without tooling. The Kickstarter costs and hence my pricing then assumed using some tools to produce blanks. Tools were for just blanks so not crazy expensive but nonetheless expensive for a small upstart. Tools make part price lower.

My reality is tool-less. No tooling costs mean high part costs.

My costs went up such that it didn’t make sense to have buyers pay partial and then the remaining at delivery. The difference was small. But I kept price the same. I chased cost reductions elsewhere to counter this. But areas to squeeze were few and far between. That is why it took a while for me to come back with the pricing for the Limited Edition Janus. We had to actually figure how to make these without tools and at what cost before I could take orders.  

I think most people see the $500 price, and automatically think my costs are $250 coz of ‘retail rules’. I’m generalizing here which I hate to do. First, one must find a crazy shop that wants to take this on knowing very well that the volumes are low, and the effort upfront might not pay off. Then one doesn’t necessarily pick the lowest quote either. Or the people that want to work with you might not be the cheapest. After this first batch, the shop and I will both know our exact costs. The shop will adjust his price accordingly, and I will adjust my selling price accordingly also to cover the final cost and a reasonable profit.

I’m using my own powder to cover refunds even midway through the project, milling, assembly and laser marking fixtures, and I’m producing slightly more than 51 just in case couple get scratched during assembly, I will still have 50 pristine units to send to customers. Still, only 50 will be out there.

There are lots of nuances and complexities in the project than meets the eye. I think one can’t simply guesstimate a razor’s cost from looking at another razor. For example, the nature of the Janus is such that everything is not produced under one roof. Surely, the machine shop does a bulk of the work.

Take one of my open razor renders and have 3 or so local shops give you quick estimate on the doors (qty 100). You will get a good reference on what things cost. Then add your values/philosophy on how you create and make stuff.

Most of the feedback I have received is on the wait time. Rightfully so, you and others have been implicit on price. I understand that concern. Some folks might be worried about the creator accountability like what you would find on Kickstarter. But then again, they didn’t support the Kickstarter when it was live. That is why I communicated in the newsletter that the ideal person is one who is comfortable with small reasonable hiccups and will stick around to the end…like I stuck through the design challenges when I was prototyping…

I can take you off the reserve list to make room for somebody who is considering jumping in. However, I would like to have you as a future customer when you are comfortable and I’m in regular production.

In a nutshell, it's a $500 leap of faith on a product that will deliver in 4-5 months.  Money will be refunded, but know it's coming out of the Eric's pocket. If you have any reservations, get it out of your system now and bail, or sit back and be quiet...especially if you didn't support the initial Kickstarter campaign. I think I got it.   Thanks.

For the record, I did not ask for a justification on the cost of the razor.  I don't care what your costs/profits are and I never made any assumptions of the subject (i don't think I did anyway).  I just went to pay thinking we were splitting the cost to find a bill for all of it.  It obviously didn't phase me, I paid it right away.  I was curious what I read wrong.  As to lead time, I really don't care how long that takes either.  I just want an heirloom quality product, with a mirror finish, that performs as well as the prototype must have for a the guys that got to try it.  I can be patient for that kind of product. 

I don't know why you jumped to "I can take you off the list".  I never implied I wanted a refund.  I just wanted to make sure I understood.  That's all.

First, thanks for the pre-ordering the Janus. I appreciate the support. 

My intention was not for you to interpret what I said that way. My apologies for coming across as dismissive. 

I touched on how refunds will be addressed even in the midst of production to address your point #2 & #3. Life happens and priorities change, so offering refunds is the right thing to do. I know this is important for folks. I have reread my comments to see and if I muddied the waters in that respect, I'm happy to correct the record.  

I went into some details to address why what looks like the same deal on Kickstarter like it is for the LEs isn't really the same because of the change in approach to manufacturing. I got long winded but it is me adding context.

Happy to continue the conversation.

If tooling means machining something using special machining tools - how do you now make the parts without those tools?

If tooling means machining something special machining tools - how do you now make the parts without those tools?

By tooling, I mean things like molds and dies. Not cutting tools like inserts, reamers, drills, threading tools.

If tooling means machining something special machining tools - how do you now make the parts without those tools?

By tooling, I mean things like molds and dies. Not cutting tools like inserts, reamers, drills, threading tools.

Will this be a Completely CNC’d Razor from Solid 316L Stainless Steel, or will it have Cast or MIM Parts?

If tooling means machining something special machining tools - how do you now make the parts without those tools?

By tooling, I mean things like molds and dies. Not cutting tools like inserts, reamers, drills, threading tools.

Will this be a Completely CNC’d Razor from Solid 316L Stainless Steel, or will it have Cast or MIM Parts?

No tools. No cast or MIM parts.

Is the limited edition sold out?

Is the limited edition sold out?

Not yet. 37 pre-ordered. Some folks requested a little more time which I totally understand. 3 on the reserve list requested to be taken off. So there are 3 that can still be reserved (#50, #48 & #39)