Rockwell Razors Business Model

But this ain't Kickstarter anymore andrewjs18, even though it is still acting like Kickstarter, while pretending otherwise.

This is perhaps why other forums ban discussion of "vaporware". I am happy discussion is allowed of it here, but I also think discussion should be allowed of their failures, miscommunications, and bending of the truth. Discussing, and pointing out these facts don't equate to personal attacks. It equals: buyer beware of these things.

And that can only benefit everyone, including the seller.

there's a difference between discussions and telling someone you're going to tell them about your displeasure with how their business is ran face to face when you see them at some event that's coming up. to me, that's almost like you're preparing to instigate a fight.

But this ain't Kickstarter anymore andrewjs18, even though it is still acting like Kickstarter, while pretending otherwise.

This is perhaps why other forums ban discussion of "vaporware". I am happy discussion is allowed of it here, but I also think discussion should be allowed of their failures, miscommunications, and bending of the truth. Discussing, and pointing out these facts don't equate to personal attacks. It equals: buyer beware of these things.

And that can only benefit everyone, including the seller.

there's a difference between discussions and telling someone you're going to tell them about your displeasure with how their business is ran face to face when you see them at some event that's coming up.  to me, that's almost like you're preparing to instigate a fight.

I took it to mean "in person", not that he was challenging him to a fight.

How the heck did anyone get that from his post?

This is perhaps why other forums ban discussion of "vaporware"

I'm definitely happy to discuss this with any forum members in detail on April 4th. I wouldn't consider the new Rockwell 6S "vaporware", as there are many thousands of them in the hands of backers and customers at this very moment. I'm happy to discuss any of Rockwell's failures, as I have openly in the past. As for "miscommunications" and "bending of the truth", that appears to be relative to your personal perception.

But this ain't Kickstarter anymore andrewjs18, even though it is still acting like Kickstarter, while pretending otherwise.

This is perhaps why other forums ban discussion of "vaporware". I am happy discussion is allowed of it here, but I also think discussion should be allowed of their failures, miscommunications, and bending of the truth. Discussing, and pointing out these facts don't equate to personal attacks. It equals: buyer beware of these things.

And that can only benefit everyone, including the seller.

there's a difference between discussions and telling someone you're going to tell them about your displeasure with how their business is ran face to face when you see them at some event that's coming up.  to me, that's almost like you're preparing to instigate a fight.

I took it to mean "in person", not that he was challenging him to a fight.

How the heck did anyone get that from his post?

to get enthusiastic - at least from how it seemed to me - about confronting a merchant over their business practices that you don't agree with 'face to face' is a bit strange to me. we're talking about a razor here....not some advanced life saving drug that people depend on.

This is perhaps why other forums ban discussion of "vaporware"

I'm definitely happy to discuss this with any forum members in detail on April 4th. I wouldn't consider the new Rockwell 6S "vaporware", as there are many thousands of them in the hands of backers and customers at this very moment. I'm happy to discuss any of Rockwell's failures, as I have openly in the past. As for "miscommunications" and "bending of the truth", that appears to be relative to your personal perception.

If Gillette announced today that it was rereleasing the Fatboy, but required preorder payment before production, I'd consider it vaporware, even though many people have the old Fatboy's.

When you sell something you don't have, its vaporware.

And "free razors". You make it sound as if the defective razors were the final product, and that what you fixed was some kind of gift. Yes, that is my perception of bending the truth.

As far as miscommunication, if you handled your private inquiry with StephenG better and more completely, perhaps this thread wouldn't exist.

I don't quite understand the level of disdain and aggression towards a small merchant when they're not forcing anyone to buy their products.  if I don't like the business practices a merchant has to offer, I'll simply move on and take my money with me.

we're not going to allow personal attack on this forum.  please leave that to some other venue...

Did I miss a post somewhere on this thread? Re-reading through this I don't see ANYTHING that resembles a personal attack of Rockwell Razors or it's CEO. I'm curious as to why if a vendor has a practice they employ in their operations or a policy some find disagreeable, that feeling or notion is off limits to bring to the table and is labeled as an "attack"? Isn't this why forums like this exist to give people the ability to review all the great aspects of certain products and vendors as well as make pontifications of perceived faults of a product and or vendor as well? There have been multiple kudos spread by many across the board to several Artesians and Vendors in a plethora of threads here. In this particular case, because of how the kickstarter campaign went, and ultimately turned out, there are going to be some miffed people in addition to those who are cautious moving forward when dealing with this company and I think both of those facts are justified. Frankly, I think there have been some excellent questions posed for this company already on his upcoming AMA session. If it truly is AMA, no doubt he will address those complaints and criticisms that have been levied here; and these are legitimate concerns and criticisms. They however, are not "attacks".

I think to a large degree while the people in the wet shaving world are great people (see the various fund raising efforts for the Sieberts going on currently as a clear example) TOO MANY times we act as if this niche hobby is the only place that is exempt from crappy products, bad vendors, rude artisans, etc. The first hint that someone doesn't like a company, or a product, or a soap maker, the sky starts to fall and words like "attack" and phrases like "be thankful for all the artesians out there" start getting dumped upon anyone leveling any form of criticism. It has happened here in the past with an array of topics. Only in our little bubble of a hobby would the solution to the problem of a vendor waiting a month to ship soaps to consumers after charging them be to order that soap from somewhere else and not from the soap maker. Where else in any other hobby or business would this be rendered as a sane solution? That's terrible customer service, a terrible way to run a business, and this maker of that soap should be ashamed of that fact. Yet, replies in that thread contain items like, "its a good soap and buy it from some place like maggard or IB" "maybe they should only make soap and not sell it"???? What?? Come on guys!!! Wet shaving is not immune to bad products, average to poor vendors and or poor artisans. If anyone is getting attacked on anything its the people levying anything that resembles a harsh critique of a product or vendor, not the makers themselves. I'm wondering if any review in wet shaving is worth reading at this point. EVERYTHING IS GREAT..... BEST PRODUCTS AND COMPANY OUT THERE.... seem to be what is standard and accepted for any proprietor of wet shave gear. God forbid if something just isn't absolutely wonderful in this hobby.

I don't quite understand the level of disdain and aggression towards a small merchant when they're not forcing anyone to buy their products.  if I don't like the business practices a merchant has to offer, I'll simply move on and take my money with me.

we're not going to allow personal attack on this forum.  please leave that to some other venue...

Did I miss a post somewhere on this thread?  Re-reading through this I don't see ANYTHING that resembles a personal attack of Rockwell Razors or it's CEO.  I'm curious as to why if a vendor has a practice they employ in their operations or a policy some find disagreeable, that feeling or notion is off limits to bring to the table and is labeled as an "attack"? Isn't this why forums like this exist to give people the ability to review all the great aspects of certain products and vendors as well as make pontifications of perceived faults of a product and or vendor as well? There have been multiple kudos spread by many across the board to several Artesians and Vendors in a plethora of threads here.  In this particular case, because of how the kickstarter campaign went, and ultimately turned out, there are going to be some miffed people in addition to those who are cautious moving forward when dealing with this company and I think both of those facts are justified.  Frankly, I think there have been some excellent questions posed for this company already on his upcoming AMA session.  If it truly is AMA, no doubt he will address those complaints and criticisms that have been levied here;  and these are legitimate concerns and criticisms.  They however, are not "attacks".

I think to a large degree while the people in the wet shaving world are great people (see the various fund raising efforts for the Sieberts going on currently as a clear example)  TOO MANY times we act as if this niche hobby is the only place that is exempt from crappy products, bad vendors, rude artisans, etc.  The first hint that someone doesn't like a company, or a product, or a soap maker, the sky starts to fall and words like "attack" and phrases like "be thankful for all the artesians out there" start getting dumped upon anyone leveling any form of criticism.  It has happened here in the past with an array of topics.  Only in our little bubble of a hobby would the solution to the problem of a vendor waiting a month to ship soaps to consumers after charging them be to order consumer after charging them, be to order that soap from somewhere else and not from the soap maker.  Where else in any other hobby or business would this be rendered as a sane solution?  That's terrible customer service, a terrible way to run a business, and this maker of that soap should be ashamed of that fact.  Yet replies in that thread contain items like, "its a good soap and buy it from some place like maggard or IB" "maybe they should only make soap and not sell it"????  What??  Come on guys!!!  Wet shaving is not immune to bad products, average to poor vendors and or poor artisans.  If anyone is getting attacked on anything its the people levying anything that resembles a harsh critique of a product or vendor, not the makers themselves.  I'm wondering if any review in wet shaving is worth reading at this point.  EVERYTHING IS GREAT..... BEST PRODUCTS AND COMPANY OUT THERE....

StephenG edited his post and then the subsequent quoted posts were edited by me.

just an aside, this shaving forum is the most open forum in terms of what is discussed out of any shaving forum out there.

steeleshaves

I take reviews with a  strict grain of salt.  I think you make a point :-) I guess if one can't criticize what's the point.

After doing this for twenty plus years, a review to me doesn't mean much.  I still read them, but.....

A few of the comments were self-edited, and I think Andrew was speaking generally by reiterating the rule against personal attacks, offering a cautionary note. I didn't read it as an order not to offer a negative review.

As for reviews steeleshaves, this is literally the only forum where I have been able to offer a negative review of a certain soap without getting banned or admonished by a moderator. And I certainly agree that there are far too many places where positive opinions of certain products are the only ones that are allowed (which is why I am always advocating for open discussion). Here I think, the important thing is to allow the airing of negative experiences (which has happened) while ensuring that the frustration doesn't turn into actual personal attacks (which ought not be allowed). Critique of the vendor/artisan or product is fine.

just an aside, this shaving forum is the most open forum in terms of what is discussed out of any shaving forum out there.

+1

And that is what I love most about this place! Thank you andrewjs18 , and let that never change!