How Much Higher Can The Bar Go?

grim I am enjoying our exchange, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. Again, not to quibble (well maybe a bit) my point was there is a difference between a practical necessity to make money and a fiduciary obligation to do so. A sole proprietor is subject to the former and not the latter.

I will grant you that the MegaConglom Incs of the world have access to capital and resources that the artisan soap makers can only dream of. There is a difference however, between having the access and availing themselves of it. No Gillette or PG is mobilizing cutting edge technology and resources to make soap or razors or any of that. They're using what hey need to to ensure that they're competitive in their marketplace and they are as profitable as they can be. I don't think its fair to compare the technology used in manufacturing microchips to that used in soap making. With microchips they're either good or they're not. You don't have a garage based microchip manufacturing facility because if you did the chips they produced wouldn't actually be microchips, they'd be garbage. Thats not the case with soap, and just because Gillette could invest in space age soap making factories they don't need to. Its soap. Sure they're not making it in 5 gallon buckets in their basement and I'm sure their equipment is pretty slick but its only as slick and advanced as it needs to be to allow them to achieve their goals. Profit and market share.

Do I think Gillette could make a soap equal to or better than MdC or Nuavia? Absolutely. The only reason they don't is because they don't want to. They make their products as good as they have to be to achieve their goals - profit and market share. To refer to the beer analogy again, Coors makes their beer the way they do because thats what they want - a beer that has a broad appeal, will offend the fewest number of people and achieves the profit/market share goals. They can brew beer any way they choose - they're experts at it which is why when Sam Adams started up they had one of the major breweries brew it for them. They gave them the malt bill - ingredients list and bottles/ables etc. Ingredients will cost more and the market will be smaller but then thats craft beer isn't it?

Mark

Nobody is denying that R&D is important to new product development. Some of us are saying that there is very limited room for new product development in the making of soap, which renders the exponential cost of new R&D moot. You aren't looking for a new formulation that has never existed before, you're looking to tweak existing formulations with an occasionally new, but still very well known, ingredient. Not the same thing.

Nobody is arguing that profit is not the end goal. Some of us are saying that putting artisan level soaps on the shelves at WalMart will damage the end result of those soaps, and those of that believe this have provided very legitimate ways in which this occurs. The most convincing evidence of this is the fact that nobody is doing it, because nobody has managed to come up with a way to produce that amount of soap without losing some of the quality of both the end result and the customer service.

Nobody is saying that long standing traditional values are unimportant to the final quality of a product. Some of us are saying that artisans produce exceptional products in smaller batches that easily outperform the biggest names in the mass-marketed world, and that we appreciate those small-batch artisans much more than the mass-marketed, commercially produced recipes that haven't changed in 100 years.

This topic started out asking how high can the bar go, and has devolved into a discussion of whether or not mass-produced soaps make money for Proctor & Gamble. It doesn't make sense.

Yes...P&G makes a fortune selling sub-par performance to millions. If THAT is the end goal of artisan soap makers, they are in the wrong business. P&G already has the laboratory...not for soap, but for their countless other hygiene products that they mass produce using chemical cleansers and synthetic fragrances. If you walk into WalMart, you will not see a shelf full of B&M, Stirling, and L&L soaps. What you will see is Barbasol, Williams, and Gillette. Nobody can make the argument that those products perform as well as our artisan soaps. If they DO make that argument, they are not fully evaluating the products being compared, because there simply is no comparison between a puck of Williams or a can of Barbasol and a tub of L&L Bison Tallow. The people that don't care about performance because shaving is just a 2 minute chore to be suffered through don;t count. They don;t go looking for better performance, because they believe they have what they need. They will be impressed when P&G changes the color of Edge Gel from Blue to Green. That's the extent of their interest.

At the end of the day, if the level of performance for a shaving soap is going to continue to improve, it is NOT going to happen by using mass-production. It is going to occur because Joe Schmoe is downstairs in his basement every single night, fidgeting with ingredients, testing new formulations, and putting his heart and soul into producing something that he (or she) is proud of. If you need evidence of that...look around you. For 50 years, people were stoked on Williams soap. For 30 years after that they were stoked on Barbasol in a can. For the last 5 years, we have seen exponential improvement in the area of artisan shave soap developement. Everything from improvements in cushion and glide, to MASSIVE improvements in shelf-stability, latherability, and scent.

The biggest artisan soapers producing quality products today are NOT putting their products in RiteAid and WalMart. There is a reason for this. Cost, production, marketing, and manufacturing all have a role in that reason...

Yup, what BadDad said.

Back to raising the bar - its the artisan soap makers that are raising the bar at the moment. Its the soap, its the scent, its the relationships, its the experience. I can break down my morning shave into all the various steps and processes I go through but at the end of the shave, its all about the experience and I have to say, I generally experience a Damn Fine Shave and that makes me smile, it starts my day in a genuinely happy, contemplative and relaxed mood. Thats better than a weekly session with a therapist if you ask me.

Marko

 Some of us are saying that artisans ... that easily outperform the biggest names in the mass-marketed world

Thats not my opinion. For example, MdC, clearly artisan, I've seen their videos and they are not small batches.

Similarly,  you would be hard pressed to find any majority of people, in a one on one blind test, think any artisan is better ... across a large sample of people, than C&S, ADP, ABC, and SMN (Perhaps Boellis but I have not tried them). And I see no evidence any of those are "artisans".  I don't mean anecdotal data. I mean crowd source the answers.

This topic started out asking how high can the bar go, and has devolved into a discussion of whether or not mass-produced soaps make money for Proctor & Gamble. It doesn't make sense.

This part is true but that answer is easy. You don't improve, you die. Adapt or die. Now whether the improvements are announced "NEW AND IMPROVED!" or just done silent (maybe like ADP), is a different question. So I agree with Marko, you adapt of die.


A broader point here is this adoration of small businesses. Just look around you and the handwriting is on the wall and I can give a huge list but some examples.

1. There used to be photography shops in about every mall. Over time, the numbers were reduced to maybe one in a major city. Today, if I want gear, have to go to NYC (which was always a Mecca for photography gear). Mom and Pop photo shop are gone. Just like people here thinking its great to talk to a soap maker, you used to be able to talk to a photo guy in a store. No more.

2. Book stores ... Barnes and Nobles and I think one more survive. Their days are ending rapidly. Buy a few years ago, there was book store in every mall.

3. Supermarkets. No question there. Big chains rule. Mom and Pop is as obsolete as Soda Fountains

4. Amazon is about taking over the world. And I know in this hobby people talk about buying from other online vendors but if one offers a product for $25 and Amazon sells it for $15. Guess again. Thats how capitalism works. They strong survive, and the weak disappear.

Now is this good for society? Maybe/maybe not. But it is what it is. I know this. Its good for my wallet. I don't want to pay $25 when I can pay $15.


So specifically about soaps.

You can come back to this in 5 years, Grim's grim prediction. The way I see this a handful established firms have lots of experience (e.g., there 3Ts and older Italian business (e.g.., Proraso, ADP). In the last 5 years, all kind of people jump on the band wagon. Hmm, I can make this soap too. Is the market saturated? I don't know. Bufflehead said there are now "shartisans".  Over time, the weak will fall out. Maybe the product is poor or not. This is a reason I don't like youtube reviews where "everything is perfect". Nonsense. Try enough products and you know thats just not true.

So get in  your time machine and go to say 2022. Who will be left, who will rise, how many new ones will rise, and what will be the state of the industry.

My guess is dozens will fall by the wayside. Those with fanboys will always have fanboys (that is the nature of fanboyism) but in the end, its always the profit bottom line that matters. The good will rise to the top. There will be a middle pack, and the rest will disappear, as they always have throughout history. The question is "how many will survive by 2022? Will there be hundreds? 20? 5? My guess is closer to 20 than 200. Right now, this is sort of the end of the honeymoon stage. Sooner or later that will end.

Just as with about everything else, consolidation will occur. Its a matter of economies of scale. There is a reason AT&T is about to buy Time warner. The big get bigger and the little guys go away.  Black holes swallow stars.

I do agree with the original post and feel that it's spot on in terms of what's going on out there. As far as the big name massed produced makers like T&H, TOBs, etc. They are sitting put with their products and for the most part not tweaking them. They are riding their name and reputation and in some cases even putting out inferior new products like many of the new non tallow versions. So, I don't consider them to be the cutting edge vendors and, for the most part, their soaps don't impress me at all. Their decisions are made based on the bottom line and changes are slow to materialize. In some cases like that of Martin de Candre this is a good thing, but that would be the one exception for me. I struggle to call the majority of these makers artisans.

In putting on several soap passarounds on another forum I've had the pleasure of many conversations with well known soap makers. I find that they do in fact tend to fall in one of two categories. Those that are trying their competitors soaps and constantly tweaking and testing to make their own formula better, and those that have a proven recipe and stay put with it. The ones that are constantly improving and making changes are the ones that are producing the better soaps over the long run. They seek out feedback from users and make changes to better their product constantly. These are the makers that I prefer buying from and the ones producing the most impressive products at any given moment.

The ones that stay put with a proven recipe often make some excellent quality soaps but they eventually fall behind in terms of quality. They will have their loyal followers of people who love their products (or maybe a particular scent) and keep buying them while not knowing how much better some of the soaps have gotten. In terms of quality, these products are still miles ahead of anything you could purchase at the local WalMart so they are definitely usable and enjoyable. I have many of these in my shave den as well. Some are truly excellent soaps, however they don't challenge for my top spots.

The beauty of it is that there is something for everybody right now - you want canned foam, go for it. You want artisan made small batch, sustainably produced esoteric soap, you got it. Isn't it great?

I've never really liked the use of the term "fanboy". Its derogatory and implies that a person blindly touts the virtues of a particular product in denial of any other. My grandfather liked a specific brand of pipe tobacco, does that make him a fanboy? Who knows if he would have posted on a pipe tobacco forum had any existed. If you've found a soap that you really enjoy and understand the transient nature of the business, you're going to want the maker of that soap to be around as long as possible so if you can help out in some small way by telling other guys about the product and why you like it, why not? Its better than trying to keep it your secret like a favourite fishing hole and then seeing their doors close because nobody even knew they existed. And at the end of the day, thats what these forums are about aren't they. Sharing our experiences , promoting products, and just generally enjoying ourselves. If you don't want to talk about soap and razors and stuff like that, don't come to a shaving forum.

There is no doubt that if you don't adapt, you die. Life works that way.

I don't know any similar industries to this. Artisan Pizzas ... came and went. Artisan Breads, some are still around, small places, nothing national I know. Microbreweries, and Sam Adams falls under this, there is a huge disparity here. People drink. Few people shave the old fashioned way.

I'm not sure there are any good industries to compare the marketing and product development model. Someone got any ideas?

I read someplace that TOBS Sandalwood is by far the best selling soap.

The beauty of it is that there is something for everybody right now - you want canned foam, go for it.  You want artisan made small batch, sustainably produced esoteric soap, you got it.  Isn't it great?  

I've never really liked the use of the term "fanboy".  Its derogatory and implies that a person blindly touts the virtues of a particular product in denial of any other.  My grandfather liked a specific brand of pipe tobacco, does that make him a fanboy?  Who knows if he would have posted on a pipe tobacco forum had any existed.  If you've found a soap that you really enjoy and understand the transient nature of the business, you're going to want the maker of that soap to be around as long as possible so if you can help out in some small way by telling other guys about the product and why you like it, why not?  Its better than trying to keep it your secret like a favourite fishing hole and then seeing their doors close because nobody even knew they existed.  And at the end of the day, thats what these forums are about aren't they.  Sharing our experiences , promoting products, and just generally enjoying ourselves.  If you don't want to talk about soap and razors and stuff like that, don't come to a shaving forum.

People who go on about how their favorite products are good, better, best etc. are fans. I am a fan of Mystic Water, Mike, and too some extent B&M.

Fanboys are those who act extremely defensive when their favorite products/brands are criticized. I can clearly see the difference.

If I praise Mystic Water soaps extensively for their protective lather, post shave, scent, availability etc, I am a fan. If I criticize everyone who fails to get a good lather from this soap, question the legitimacy of their lathering technique (in a rather aggressive way), or better yet, go ahead and tell them they don't know how to lather a soap - I will fall into the category of fanboy.

I've never really liked the use of the term "fanboy".  Its derogatory and implies that a person blindly touts the virtues of a particular product in denial of any other.  

@iamsms explained it very well.

I am a fan of lots of things, but fanboy of none. Fanboys go way beyond the normal feeling that anything said about their beloved objects of adoration is a personal insult. It's not. They are the ones who are "fanatic". There is a huge difference between fans and fanboys.  A true fan will be quick to talk about the faults of a product or team. A fanboy finds NO fault to their object of adoration.

I am a fan of "fill-in" your favorite sports team.  But that doesn't mean I might not like other team as well.

Fanboys exist in about every subjects. Car fanboys are well known. Even parts specific. The can be fanboys of just exhaust systems. It gets ridiculous.

If you have a favorite resteraunt that's cool. But if someone else doesn't like it, if it doesn't bother you, you can still be a fan. But if someone else doesn't like it and you attack that in an ad hominem and ridiculous way as an affront, then you might be a fanboy.  As you deal with this longer and longer, fanboys become marginalized and ignored as you can't reason with illogical conclusion. They no longer defend just the product but view it as the SOLE product of any worth.

 Some of us are saying that artisans ... that easily outperform the biggest names in the mass-marketed world

Thats not my opinion. For example, MdC, clearly artisan, I've seen their videos and they are not small batches.

Similarly,  you would be hard pressed to find any majority of people, in a one on one blind test, think any artisan is better ... across a large sample of people, than C&S, ADP, ABC, and SMN (Perhaps Boellis but I have not tried them). And I see no evidence any of those are "artisans".  I don't mean anecdotal data. I mean crowd source the answers.

This topic started out asking how high can the bar go, and has devolved into a discussion of whether or not mass-produced soaps make money for Proctor & Gamble. It doesn't make sense.

This part is true but that answer is easy. You don't improve, you die. Adapt or die. Now whether the improvements are announced "NEW AND IMPROVED!" or just done silent (maybe like ADP), is a different question. So I agree with Marko, you adapt of die.


A broader point here is this adoration of small businesses. Just look around you and the handwriting is on the wall and I can give a huge list but some examples.

1. There used to be photography shops in about every mall. Over time, the numbers were reduced to maybe one in a major city. Today, if I want gear, have to go to NYC (which was always a Mecca for photography gear). Mom and Pop photo shop are gone. Just like people here thinking its great to talk to a soap maker, you used to be able to talk to a photo guy in a store. No more.

2. Book stores ... Barnes and Nobles and I think one more survive. Their days are ending rapidly. Buy a few years ago, there was book store in every mall.

3. Supermarkets. No question there. Big chains rule. Mom and Pop is as obsolete as Soda Fountains

4. Amazon is about taking over the world. And I know in this hobby people talk about buying from other online vendors but if one offers a product for $25 and Amazon sells it for $15. Guess again. Thats how capitalism works. They strong survive, and the weak disappear.

Now is this good for society? Maybe/maybe not. But it is what it is. I know this. Its good for my wallet. I don't want to pay $25 when I can pay $15.


So specifically about soaps.

You can come back to this in 5 years, Grim's grim prediction. The way I see this a handful established firms have lots of experience (e.g., there 3Ts and older Italian business (e.g.., Proraso, ADP). In the last 5 years, all kind of people jump on the band wagon. Hmm, I can make this soap too. Is the market saturated? I don't know. Bufflehead said there are now "shartisans".  Over time, the weak will fall out. Maybe the product is poor or not. This is a reason I don't like youtube reviews where "everything is perfect". Nonsense. Try enough products and you know thats just not true.

So get in  your time machine and go to say 2022. Who will be left, who will rise, how many new ones will rise, and what will be the state of the industry.

My guess is dozens will fall by the wayside. Those with fanboys will always have fanboys (that is the nature of fanboyism) but in the end, its always the profit bottom line that matters. The good will rise to the top. There will be a middle pack, and the rest will disappear, as they always have throughout history. The question is "how many will survive by 2022? Will there be hundreds? 20? 5? My guess is closer to 20 than 200. Right now, this is sort of the end of the honeymoon stage. Sooner or later that will end.

Just as with about everything else, consolidation will occur. Its a matter of economies of scale. There is a reason AT&T is about to buy Time warner. The big get bigger and the little guys go away.  Black holes swallow stars.

I think this entire post goes way off topic of what the discussion is about. The shops that no longer exist in this post do not exist because technology bowled them over, not because they failed to adapt. 1-Hour-Photo and Foto-Hut do not exist because people do not develop film. No effort on their part would have saved them as the only services they provided became obsolete. Photography shops do not exist because people buy their cameras at Target, or use their cell phone. No shop can exist selling only Hasselblad cameras and Carl Zeiss lenses for $15,000 a pop without a digital back...

AT&T buying Time Warner is the antithesis of capitalism. It is attempted monopoly, which by it's very nature destroys true capitalism and the free market. This purchase has nothing to do with improving and adapting their services and everything to do with eliminating competition. Rather than improve quality of service, they are buying out competitors, resulting in a lower quality product over all, while increasing market share. Just like P&G this does not foster competition nor does it bolster product improvement or development.

It's irrelevant to the topic at hand...

There is no doubt that if you don't adapt, you die. Life works that way.

I don't know any similar industries to this. Artisan Pizzas ... came and went. Artisan Breads, some are still around, small places, nothing national I know. Microbreweries, and Sam Adams falls under this, there is a huge disparity here. People drink. Few people shave the old fashioned way.

I'm not sure there are any good industries to compare the marketing and product development model. Someone got any ideas?

I read someplace that TOBS Sandalwood is by far the best selling soap.

A word of caution...popularity is not synonymous with quality. Absolut and Stolichnaya are 2 of the most popular vodkas, the world over. They are comparatively HORRIBLE in terms of quality. They are popular because of marketing and advertising, not because of their quality. Cheap and easy wins popularity contests, but also leaves quality lacking.

Micro and local breweries are springing up in rural areas across the country. Small brewers in small batches, brewing on-site are increasingly popular, and the quality is HUGELY better than mass-produced brews such as Coors and Budweiser...even their "artisanal" products cannot compare. The reason is attention to detail and desire. Same as the reason small-batch artisanal products are, with very few exceptions, higher quality than mass-produced products of the same category.

I'm not saying ABC, or whatever, is not equal in quality to B&M. I'm saying they are the exception that proves the rule. Barbasol, Williams, and Edge are, undoubtedly and undeniably, of lower quality...