How Much Higher Can The Bar Go?

I was just re-reading my post immediately above and it looks like I'm implying that those artisans who've continued to improve and innovate didn't get it right the first time.  Thats not what I meant at all, in fact, to name names here, the Barrister And Mann original white label soap is still better, IMO than most of the soaps on the market today and their glissant base soap is better still.  The artisans who strive to improve and innovate notwithstanding the fact that they got it right the first time are the ones that keep raising the bar.
Mark

I've been trying to love Glissant, but I still like the White Label and Latha bases better. I have more than 20 white label soaps, 8 tubs of Latha, and 2 Glissant. For some reason, I haven't been able to get the same cushion from Glissant. I'm in the minority with it. Maybe it's my very hard water, but for me the other bases just work better.

It could be your water, I have a water softener and all of my B&M soaps perform very well. I have a few more B&M soaps than you do - I haven't counted lately, but I'm the first to tell a new shaver or someone new to B&M not to discount the white label (or black label) or Latha soaps believing that the glissant has completely eclipsed them. While the glissant is great, so are all the other B&M soaps and then there is the scent. There are many B&M scents that aren't yet available in glissant and may never be.

It very likely is the water. Mystic Waters gives me hell too. I have to load the hell out of it and it still takes a long time to build a great lather. Once I get there, it's awesome, but man, it's a ton of work.

I've been trying to love Glissant, but I still like the White Label and Latha bases better. I have more than 20 white label soaps, 8 tubs of Latha, and 2 Glissant. For some reason, I haven't been able to get the same cushion from Glissant. I'm in the minority with it. Maybe it's my very hard water, but for me the other bases just work better.

It could be your water, I have a water softener and all of my B&M soaps perform very well.  I have a few more B&M soaps than you do - I haven't counted lately, but I'm the first to tell a new shaver or someone new to B&M not to discount the white label (or black label) or Latha soaps believing that the glissant has completely eclipsed them.  While the glissant is great, so are all the other B&M soaps and then there is the scent.  There are many B&M scents that aren't yet available in glissant and may never be.

It very likely is the water. Mystic Waters gives me hell too. I have to load the hell out of it and it still takes a long time to build a great lather. Once I get there, it's awesome, but man, it's a ton of work.

Have you tried simply adding more water to the lather? Less? I'm sure you have, but it was designed to resist the effects of hard water, so I'm unsure as to what might be causing the issue. o.O

It could be your water, I have a water softener and all of my B&M soaps perform very well.  I have a few more B&M soaps than you do - I haven't counted lately, but I'm the first to tell a new shaver or someone new to B&M not to discount the white label (or black label) or Latha soaps believing that the glissant has completely eclipsed them.  While the glissant is great, so are all the other B&M soaps and then there is the scent.  There are many B&M scents that aren't yet available in glissant and may never be.

It very likely is the water. Mystic Waters gives me hell too. I have to load the hell out of it and it still takes a long time to build a great lather. Once I get there, it's awesome, but man, it's a ton of work.

Have you tried simply adding more water to the lather? Less? I'm sure you have, but it was designed to resist the effects of hard water, so I'm unsure as to what might be causing the issue. o.O

I'll give them a try. More water seems make the lather less dense than with the original tallow base using the same soap/water ratio. It's definitely more slick, just doesn't seem to have the same creaminess to it. Maybe it just needs to be worked a bit longer.

...There is too much emphasis here about "craft roots" and other artisan mumbo jumbo. There is no magic here, in the technical products. In the customer service, sure, but not the final product.  I really don't understand the adoration or mystique about this. Maybe the rebirth or rejuvenation of an old industry has caused industrious individuals to jump on the bandwagon of an old skill (i.e., soap making) trying to make money. But in the end, its just a business and all businesses have on fiduciary responsibility, the bottom line of the owner or stockholders.

Read the responses from the artisans on this forum, and you will understand what the attraction is to the artisan makers.

Yesterday, I received an order that I placed with one of our member artisans. Within the package was a free sample of soap. This sample was specifically chosen for me by the artisan not only because a free sample is nice, but specifically because the sample chosen has a connection straight razors and honing.

This means that this artisan not only appreciates me as a customer, but recognizes me as a person from the forum, makes the connection between here and there, in addition to my order, and has made the extra effort to remember what I like, and implement that into my order outside of the forum. I don;t know if I am explaining that clearly, but that is a HUGE effort on his part, just to show me that he appreciates me as a consumer AND as a human being.

Another brilliant example is Stirling soap company. As big as they are, when I was having concerns over the recent shipping fiasco of my badger brush, Rod took the time to track my order and follow the progress, as well as respond to me with what our collective next steps would be if things went further wrong. Things did not go wrong, and my brush arrived safely, which I informed them of via email. When I made a post here that my brush arrived...Rod was first in line to "Like" that post. This means, again, that Stirling Soap Company has recognized me, and acknowledged me as a human being, not just a customer number. It shows concern for my satisfaction as a person.

One last example...Will from Barrister & Mann. I made an off-hand comment that I had a difficult time lathering their soap, and so I gave it away. Will acknowledged my troubles, and offered to send me a tub of Latha, as he felt it would solve my issues with his soap. I turned him down because I knew the issue was mine, not his, and also because the original soap was a gift, not something I purchased. Regardless...his willingness to make everything right, even though there wasn;t really anything wrong, was MILES above what any reasonable person could expect from an artisan.

The point is...people adore these artisans because we are able to interact with them, resolve issues, and have a relationship.

Do you think MdC would spend the time working with an individual to develop a one-off soap like L&L Grooming did with kwsher to create Sonoma Valley? Would VdH contact me and offer to make a bad experience right, knowing full well that my bad experience was NOT their fault and in no way reflected negatively on them the way Will at B&M did? Would Proraso take the time and make the effort to reconcile my customer profile with a known forum profile, and specifically select a free sample based on that reconciliation of anonymous ID and paying customer the way Crowne & Crane did? Would P&G take the time to develope a limited edition scent profile based on specific requests made by individuals the way Chatillon Lux has with Marko ?

I think the answer to all of those questions is undoubtedly and resoundingly NO...which fully explains the fascination and love affair wet shavers have with artisan makers...

Well said once again BadDad, well said. I would also much rather support these type of businesses than the corporate entities who are, lets face it, just in it for the money. I prefer their products and scents anyway opposed to the others so its a win-win.

Read the responses from the artisans on this forum, and you will understand what the attraction is to the artisan makers.

Marko wrote: It would be a nightmare, they'd have to farm it out to some major soap factory and I imagine all sorts of aspects of the final product would suffer.

I believe that to be nonsense and clearly said I didn't understand the fascination and mystique around "artisans". I was speaking in terms of the technical attributes of the final product just as Marko was talking about the technical attributes of the "final products". Although I understand your passions, a good thing, and long examples were good examples, they all fall under the one sentence you left out, which I articulated ...

There is no magic here, in the technical products. In the customer service, sure

There is no magic here IN THE TECHNICAL PRODUCTS - referencing @Marco's Concerns about the migrations from mom and pop "artisans" to factory production  and ...

In the customer service, sure - referencing that was a given. No large company is going to give you as good as service as small owners. Although some do. For example LL Bean, to this day, will let you return anything ever bought, any time, no questions asked.

Sorry, your long answer, while good examples, I never disagreed with customer service  I disagree with the concept of moving from small scale operations to large scale operations means the end product suffers.

...There is too much emphasis here about "craft roots" and other artisan mumbo jumbo. There is no magic here, in the technical products. In the customer service, sure, but not the final product.  I really don't understand the adoration or mystique about this. Maybe the rebirth or rejuvenation of an old industry has caused industrious individuals to jump on the bandwagon of an old skill (i.e., soap making) trying to make money. But in the end, its just a business and all businesses have on fiduciary responsibility, the bottom line of the owner or stockholders.

Read the responses from the artisans on this forum, and you will understand what the attraction is to the artisan makers.

Yesterday, I received an order that I placed with one of our member artisans. Within the package was a free sample of soap. This sample was specifically chosen for me by the artisan not only because a free sample is nice, but specifically because the sample chosen has a connection straight razors and honing.

This means that this artisan not only appreciates me as a customer, but recognizes me as a person from the forum, makes the connection between here and there, in addition to my order, and has made the extra effort to remember what I like, and implement that into my order outside of the forum. I don;t know if I am explaining that clearly, but that is a HUGE effort on his part, just to show me that he appreciates me as a consumer AND as a human being.

Another brilliant example is Stirling soap company. As big as they are, when I was having concerns over the recent shipping fiasco of my badger brush, Rod took the time to track my order and follow the progress, as well as respond to me with what our collective next steps would be if things went further wrong. Things did not go wrong, and my brush arrived safely, which I informed them of via email.  When I made a post here that my brush arrived...Rod was first in line to "Like" that post. This means, again, that Stirling Soap Company has recognized me, and acknowledged me as a human being, not just a customer number. It shows concern for my satisfaction as a person.

One last example...Will from Barrister & Mann. I made an off-hand comment that I had a difficult time lathering their soap, and so I gave it away. Will acknowledged my troubles, and offered to send me a tub of Latha, as he felt it would solve my issues with his soap. I turned him down because I knew the issue was mine, not his, and also because the original soap was a gift, not something I purchased. Regardless...his willingness to make everything right, even though there wasn;t really anything wrong, was MILES above what any reasonable person could expect from an artisan.

The point is...people adore these artisans because we are able to interact with them, resolve issues, and have a relationship.

Do you think MdC would spend the time working with an individual to develop a one-off soap like L&L Grooming did with kwsher to create Sonoma Valley? Would VdH contact me and offer to make a bad experience right, knowing full well that my bad experience was NOT their fault and in no way reflected negatively on them the way Will at B&M did?  Would Proraso take the time and make the effort to reconcile my customer profile with a known forum profile, and specifically select a free sample based on that reconciliation of anonymous ID and paying customer the way Crowne & Crane did? Would P&G take the time to develope a limited edition scent profile based on specific requests made by individuals the way Chatillon Lux has with Marko ?

I think the answer to all of those questions is undoubtedly and resoundingly NO...which fully explains the fascination and love affair wet shavers have with artisan makers...

Chris, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Chris, I couldn't have said it better myself.

You guys are misreading what I wrote. See https://damnfineshave.com/thread-how-muc...4#pid98224

I was talking "technical attributes" not customer service

Sorry, your long answer, while good examples, I never disagreed with customer service  I disagree with the concept of moving from small scale operations to large scale operations means the end product suffers.

Not always, but in most cases it does because the large corporation is always motivated by money. How can we cut corners to make production cheaper while still maintaining the same retail price? How can we substitute inexpensive chemicals in place of more natural ingredients?You see it time and time again whether its personal grooming items, cars or whatever. Its almost guaranteed to happen eventually. In the end, the main concern is the bottom line, not the consumer.

Chris, I couldn't have said it better myself.

You guys are misreading what I wrote.  See https://damnfineshave.com/thread-how-muc...4#pid98224

I was talking "technical attributes" not customer service

I have to say, I think it is pretty silly to think that product quality would not suffer if switched from a one-man operation to large-scale commercial manufacturing process.

You;re talking about going from one person (or 2) keeping close watch on every aspect of the process from raw ingredients to final shipping, to a manufacturing process that involves hundreds of different employees and countless digital calibrations, all hoping that the person before and after them does their job right...

Can it be done? Sure...but even under the best of manufacturing protocols, there are details that will always fall to the wayside, and these details will, invariably, effect the final product.

As for LL Bean...sure...they will take any return, any time, no questions asked. That's awesome. But if you call with an issue that takes time to resolve, you will see a HUGE difference. Call 3 days in a row, you'll get 3 different representatives, and have to explain the situation 3 different times. No matter how diligent they are at trying to keep their customers happy, the level of service provided by an entire flock of customer service representatives making an hourly rate cannot compare with the level of concern and care that is displayed by 1 individual with everything to lose or gain from that one experience...