How Much Higher Can The Bar Go?

[ it's not really accurate to imply that the tendency of newer artisans to indicate whether a formulation has been changed or not is better or worse than the methods employed by the older houses. It's simply a difference in style

Sorry, I was not trying to imply anything, only my observations. I just don't see the older "artisans" advertising much of anything about "new and improved" products. If you didn't have an older version of ADP to compare a newer version, you might never know the scent changed. I'm no sure MdC, which is clearly artisan, has ever changed anything, although they clearly could have and the public never known it. And with the older places like SMN and ABC, I think I have read SMN changed something but I don't see it advertised.

OTH, I do observe advertising for the newer artisans, and not just from the US.

SV Cosmos is V4.2 which clearly indicates there were previous versions
CRSW is on V2.0

These are advertised as such. In some cases, you see "new formula".

These are just facts from observation. OTH, the older places, I do not observe this happening. I do not see ABC touting some new formula or even a new scent. yes, a difference in style. But that does not mean they haven't changed something. Just saying, I kind of agree with the OP. Its just a different style.

When I think about it, I don't see them advertising anything at all. You don't see Santa Maria Novella, Antica Barbiera Colla, Martin De Candre, LPL, etc advertising anything. Forget about the commercial places like Trumpers or TOBS. Its only the new artisans who advertise. Just an observation. But I also don't see some new artisans advertising either. I guess its what the company want to do or not.

Just a thought: Most of the soaps that you mention not advertising much are from Europe. We are lucky to have artisans like Will, and Rod from Stirling, and Ron from CF (just for example) who kind of hang out with us like a buddy having a beer in the backyard. I think maybe because of that interaction we end up being told a lot more about what is going on or upcoming.

Maybe a guy on a French forum (I assume they exist) knows a lot more about the goings on at M de C???

Just a thought that crossed my mind. Good thread, I will go back to lurking in the corner.


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I don't know about the bar going much higher in terms of software, but I think there is a great amount of room for growth and innovation in wetshaving. The biggest obstacle right now is getting a decent starter kit in places like Walmart, CVS, Target, Walgreen's, etc... Too many people think wetshaving is terrible or a gimmick because they start with a lousy starter kit from VDH or get an unusable razor from one of the many garbage domains owned by the Blades Grim scammers, and they don't stick with it and they potentially scare others away from trying it with their experience. Had they gotten a decent product from the get go, they might have stuck with it.

The fact of the matter is that wetshaving as a hobby is not the path to riches or a sustainable market. There will only be so many people for so long who will rush out to buy everything they can get their hands on. The path to prosperity and innovation in wetshaving will come from getting a good product in retail stores so the average shaver (who just wants a better way to shave, and may only need one or two soaps, a brush, and a razor to get the job done) can have an acceptable option. If you are a fan of the VDH kit and are offended, my apologies. They are merely an example of why the growth of this niche would benefit from a quality entry into the market. If you are a fan of the blades grim and their myriad of domains, no apologies. Selling unusable rubbish products to the uniformed masses to make a quick buck hurts the potential customer base of everyone other company involved in wetshaving and keeps those customers going back to Gillette and Schick.

VdH provided me with a good way to get started...soap, bowl, and boar brush for under $10, shipped, that allowed me to screw up and abuse my product and brush, without worrying about losing a lot of money doing it.

Of course...I very quickly realized that a new brush was needed, and I was gifted a BUNCH of artisan soaps, all of which worked to keep me in the game.

I will say, however...I still have a puck of VdH Luxury Scented soap in the den. It doesn;t see a lot of use, but I do break it out occasionally, for nostalgia sake, if nothing else...it still performs...

With that said...knowing what I know today, I would skip the VdH and go with one of Stirling's beginner kits. Unfortunately, too many new shavers use Amazon as a primary source...That's where VdH and Grimm Blades rule the roost...

I'm not sure its an apples to apples comparison when you are comparing a company like MdC which has been around for a long time to artisans with 5 years or less in the business. I'm sure there are plenty of retailers who aren't interested in stocking some upstart but will have all the big names TOBS, GFT, etc on their shelves. I also don't consider advertising, be it on forums or social media to be a bad thing. It gets the brand out there and it provides information. Barrister and Mann's approach of getting in front of changes like glissant is sensible and the fact that Will has to keep re-explaining it is more a testament to the rate of newcomers to the wet shaving world who haven't got the history because they just got into this last week. Thats fine, because there are plenty of helpful people on the forums including the artisans and vendors themselves who are happy to go over it again. I think some of the venerable old brands would be well advised to consider some sort of advertising. History is full of examples of venerable old brands that got caught napping during a sea change in the market and poof! they're gone. (kodak?). I also like to deal with artisans who seem genuinely interested in getting my business over those who look down their noses (figuratively speaking) at me to determine if I'm worthy of their product. Its soap man! All I care about is 1) does it work well, 2) does it smell good and 3) can I get it when I want it at a reasonable price. If you can't deliver on point 3 the other two points don't matter.
Mark

BTW, I am NOT blades Grim, and know nothing about them.

Sterling has excellent points about expanding the market. They do need to sell stuff in supermarkets or Walmart. Why don't they?

As to advertising, Kodak is a bad example. They advertised a LOT but couldn't see the handwriting on the wall. They couldn't adapt.

A better example to the old established brands, The elite - you know who they are, the ABC, ADP, SMN, etc.

So I'll make the analogy to cars. How many Bugatti, Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, Lambo, or Porsche ads to you see on TV?

Now how many BMW, Audi, VW, any American Car, Japanese cars ads to you see? Why don't you see the ads for the luxury cars? They don't need ads. Its the same thing.

History is full of examples of venerable old brands that got caught napping during a sea change in the market and poof! Kodak is an example of not accepting technology change. I don't see it the same way. Maybe there are other examples more relevant but I don't see how this relates to the original question.

I will claim the venerable old brands innovate ALL THE TIME. You just don't know it. The don't advertise "new and improved". They don't need too. If they didn't, they would fall by the wayside. If Ferrari, Porsche, Bugatti, Rolls and the like didn't continually improve, they would go out of business. But you might have no clue as to what new technologies have gone into the engineering. Same here. You don't know. My post #4 is wrong. I think they DO improve, but silently.

OTH, you do know that SV is on version 4.2. Hmm, What happened to V1, V2, V3? What do I do with them? Were they that bad? This sends me a message NOT to buy from these kind of folks because they haven't got it right yet. Now I am not saying they are not good, only that there is a clear indication that maybe they didn't get right the first time and I have no idea how big a leap there is from version to version. OTH, maybe MdC made some jumps but you don't know.

I will mention another 'bad' effect of this version numbering.

I don't really buy 10 soaps at a time from an Artisan, neither do I plan to .. for the time being. But I have been buying a soap or two from various artisans over the last 2 years. Often time I think about pulling a trigger on a certain soap and I find that this is the 3rd version in two years, and I think 'Lets wait for a few more months for the next version'. Happened with PAA soaps more than once.

Also whenever a new artisan comes, (T&S, P&B, sudsy soapery (this might be old, but I heard about them recently)), I think, lets wait for a few months for them to come up with 'new improved' version.

And finally, my single most favorite soap is B&M Seville. I might be one of the few persons who actually finished two tubs (yes finished!) and bought the third one. After a week or so, I heard that will is releasing Seville in 'new and improved' Glissant formula. So now every time I shave with my favorite soap, I wish I waited a few more weeks to get the one in Glissant. I am already happy with Seville (my third tub) so I am not really disappointed to use the 'old' one, but I think you know what I mean. I didn't buy 42 for the same reason even though I loved the scent: by the time I am half way through there will be a new improved version. Hence i bought a second tub of Oceana (see, I have a habit of finishing soaps).

You might think I am being cheap about a 15$ soap, but trust me I am not. I am just in the habit of not wasting anything: just my nature. I would rather donate my extra money.

All this being said, I am glad that the artisans are working hard to continuously improve their product: I am 29 and have years to enjoy their products.

BTW, I am NOT blades Grim,  and know nothing about them.

Sterling has excellent points about expanding the market. They do need to sell stuff in supermarkets or Walmart. Why don't they?

As to advertising, Kodak is a bad example. They advertised a LOT but couldn't see the handwriting on the wall. They couldn't adapt.

A better example to the old established brands, The elite - you know who they are, the ABC, ADP, SMN, etc.

So I'll make the analogy to cars. How many Bugatti, Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, Lambo, or Porsche ads to you see on TV?

Now how many BMW, Audi, VW, any American Car, Japanese cars ads to you see? Why don't you see the ads for the luxury cars? They don't need ads. Its the same thing.  

History is full of examples of venerable old brands that got caught napping during a sea change in the market and poof! Kodak is an example of not accepting technology change. I don't see it the same way. Maybe there are other examples more relevant but I don't see how this relates to the original question.

I will claim the venerable old brands innovate ALL THE TIME. You just don't know it. The don't advertise "new and improved". They don't need too. If they didn't, they would fall by the wayside. If Ferrari, Porsche, Bugatti, Rolls and the like didn't continually improve, they would go out of business. But you might have no clue as to what new technologies have gone into the engineering. Same here. You don't know. My post #4 is wrong. I think they DO improve, but silently.

OTH, you do know that SV is on version 4.2. Hmm, What happened to V1, V2, V3? What do I do with them? Were they that bad? This sends me a message NOT to buy from these kind of folks because they haven't got it right yet. Now I am not saying they are not good, only that there is a clear indication that maybe they didn't get right the first time and I have no idea how big a leap there is from version to version. OTH, maybe MdC made some jumps but you don't know.

I do see a lot of ads for Audi, Mercedes, VW and BMW in newspapers and online - in fact MANY !

However I rarely see advertising for Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati. They are the real lux brands, that I personally NEVER see advertising for.

Regarding Saponificio Varesino, they actually also still improve their first versions, and still seem to sell the older versions of their soaps, indicating they actually think they still are top performers. Just bought the black version of Dolomiti, and they still sell the original version.
I like that a soap company will continue to sell their old versions, indicating two things: 1. They stand behind all their products, even if they find a new formulation it's not necessarily far better tha the old 2. They still sell soaps from the old formulation period

You don't see ads for Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Ferrari because $500,000+ cars don't need to be advertised. Nobody runs out and buys a brand new Bugatti Veyron because they saw a late night info-mercial... Fact is, if you don't know what an Aventador is, you can't afford it, and you probably can't drive it!

Seriously, the difference between a $20,000 Prius and a $1,600,000 Veyron isn't just a matter of taste and a couple dollars. The difference is a car that will get you back and forth to work, and a high-performance machine that will get you to your own private helicopter as quickly as possible so you can make that quick hop over to your weekend cabin in Fiji, where you will hop into your Mercedes AMG E-convertible, because you don;t want to drive one of your nice cars on the island...

I don't think that's a fair comparison to the difference between LPL and PAA...

Just my opinion...

You don't see ads for Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Ferrari because $500,000+ cars don't need to be advertised. Nobody runs out and buys a brand new Bugatti Veyron because they saw a late night info-mercial...  Fact is, if you don't know what an Aventador is, you can't afford it, and you probably can't drive it!

Seriously, the  difference between a $20,000 Prius and a $1,600,000 Veyron isn't just a matter of taste and a couple dollars.  The difference is a car that will get you back and forth to work, and a high-performance machine that will get you to your own private helicopter as quickly as possible so you can make that quick hop over to your weekend cabin in Fiji, where you will hop into your Mercedes AMG E-convertible, because you don;t want to drive one of your nice cars on the island...

I don't think that's a fair comparison to the difference between LPL and PAA...

Just my opinion...

Ouch Chris! I don't know what an Aventador is! Ha-ha!

This is a good thread. I like it when Artisan's don't rest on their laurels and improve their products. Actually some artisans that are not as popular as the others have given some of my more heavyweight soaps a really good challenge. I have to try my Le Pere more but against PAA, I think I am liking the performance of PAA better.

I have also found SV's numbering to be a bit confusing. I do get what Claus is saying. They stand by their products, new or old but for newbies to the brand like I was, I was quick to assume that the lower version numbers are inferior to the more recent ones. Having said that, I do have the 70th and Cosmo. Cosmo being newer, but I found the performance to be very identical to 70th. At least to my skin. Scent is very different though, but both are good.

About Artisans, I think the ones who are giving the most value will maintain and grow their success, not only due to the good product they bring to the table but the good will they also foster within the shaving community. It makes us, the shaving fans wants to root for them. I have a couple that I'll always be a fan of as long as they don't abandon their values.

You don't see ads for Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Ferrari because $500,000+ cars don't need to be advertised. Nobody runs out and buys a brand new Bugatti Veyron because they saw a late night info-mercial...  Fact is, if you don't know what an Aventador is, you can't afford it, and you probably can't drive it!

Seriously, the  difference between a $20,000 Prius and a $1,600,000 Veyron isn't just a matter of taste and a couple dollars.  The difference is a car that will get you back and forth to work, and a high-performance machine that will get you to your own private helicopter as quickly as possible so you can make that quick hop over to your weekend cabin in Fiji, where you will hop into your Mercedes AMG E-convertible, because you don;t want to drive one of your nice cars on the island...

I don't think that's a fair comparison to the difference between LPL and PAA...

Just my opinion...

Ouch Chris! I don't know what an Aventador is! Ha-ha!

This is a good thread. I like it when Artisan's don't rest on their laurels and improve their products. Actually some artisans that are not as popular as the others have given some of my more heavyweight soaps a really good challenge. I have to try my Le Pere more but against PAA, I think I am liking the performance of PAA better.

I have also found SV's numbering to be a bit confusing. I do get what Claus is saying. They stand by their products, new or old but for newbies to the brand like I was, I was quick to assume that the lower version numbers are inferior to the more recent ones. Having said that, I do have the 70th and Cosmo. Cosmo being newer, but I found the performance to be very identical to 70th. At least to my skin. Scent is very different though, but both are good.

About Artisans, I think the ones who are giving the most value will maintain and grow their success, not only due to the good product they bring to the table but the good will they also foster within the shaving community. It makes us, the shaving fans wants to root for them. I have a couple that I'll always be a fan of as long as they don't abandon their values.

Haha! An Aventador is a 750 horsepower Lamborghini that weighs in at just around 2 tons. It's geared for racing, with all performance specs. It's AWD and 7 speed manual...though I think you can get a paddle assist auto transmission if you really want to waste your money...lol


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