Experiment #4 with hard water and Mystic Water soap

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celestino Good god man, those veins are huge.

Of course they are. celestino has to carry around hundreds of Mystic Water pucks . Gotta be buff for that.

the stockpiling was due to my fear of Michelle deciding, one day, to stop making her soap, but I am, now, quite assured that that won't happen. Nevertheless, I still order more than I need, just in case.  

So YOU are the one. I met her last Fall and was told someone was stockpiling. And NOW we know

So I tried MW about 2 or 3 years ago and it gave me fits. I could never get consistent lather no matter who helped me so I finally ended up selling it on BST. Fast forward to present time. I ordered 6 MW soaps (5 of which I love the smell of). I've "used" it twice, and done about 4 or 5 more test lathers. I am working hard to get things right so the lather is usable to me. Today my order of Stirling Soap arrived, and I used it never having used Stirling before. Just like every soap but MW I got a great lather first try.

I am certain MW is a great soap, but I wonder if it is really worth this effort. celestino has offered to skype with me to help me out, but honestly I don't think any soap should need someone to skype to see what is wrong with a technique. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I had that same issue wingdo, and believe me, it was very frustrating. Ask Celestino lol - he fielded a lot of my questions and was extraordinarily helpful in giving advice. I persisted for weeks on end, desperately trying to get a consistently stable lather out of the soap. In the end, the only thing that solved the problem completely was a water softener, but I did discover some tricks that make lathering significantly easier. I don't have extremely hard water anymore and therefore I'm not quite sure if they would have alleviated the problem. That said, I'm sure they'd make a difference.

For instance, Celestino's method, along with Nathan's "Merkur Man" method, has made a huge difference. The slow incorporation of water during the loading phase makes the lather much more stable. That simple adjustment was a marked improvement. Soft water was my second discovery, and as I mentioned completely alleviated my lathering issues. The next discovery for me was only a few days ago. Apparently a synthetic brush lathers MW much more efficiently (for whatever reason).

But I do agree that no soap should give the user any trouble, regardless of water conditions. It's one of the reason why I brought up the difficulties that I had in the first place, and Michelle has been most graceful and responsive on the subject. She mentioned elsewhere that she was experimenting with natural chelating agents in order to see if the soap can be made to account for hard water lathering issues (without sacrificing performance), though I'm not sure how far she's gotten on that development. The inclusion of a chelating agent is part of the reason why I have a significant preference for Barrister & Mann's new Glissant base over the original formula.

Mystic Water is a finicky soap for folks with very hard water, but despite this quirk, for me it is an excellent soap that I find to be more than worth the trouble. In particular, it has some unique characteristics that match even the most expensive soaps on the market, particularly in the post-shave feel category. There are many, many artisans that I've put aside as simply not being worth my time, as they are downright inferior to other soaps that I enjoy using. Despite the lathering issues, Mystic Water is not one of them - over the entire weeks-long period that I was having issues generating a stable lather, the lackluster in-shave performance would be followed by a spectacular post-shave feel. This quality ensured that I kept at it and now it's one of my favorite artisan soaps. I was happy to give it a thorough review on the luxury soaps/creams thread.

So I tried MW about 2 or 3 years ago and it gave me fits.  I could never get consistent lather no matter who helped me so I finally ended up selling it on BST.  Fast forward to present time.  I ordered 6 MW soaps (5 of which I love the smell of).  I've "used" it twice, and done about 4 or 5 more test lathers.  I am working hard to get things right so the lather is usable to me.  Today my order of Stirling Soap arrived, and I used it never having used Stirling before.  Just like every soap but MW I got a great lather first try.

I am certain MW is a great soap, but I wonder if it is really worth this effort.  celestinoas offered to skype with me to help me out, but honestly I don't think any soap should need someone to skype to see what is wrong with a technique.  Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Doug, this is very unfortunate and my offer is still available.

I have to say that after having used this soap for such a long time and having experimented with four different types of 'hard' water, I am at a loss to ascertain what else could be causing this issue except for variation in technique.
If it were anything specific in the soap, itself, then everyone would be having the same issue, I believe, but that isn't the case.

Nevertheless, if it is causing you distress, then, by all means, let it go and continue using what works best for you.

Wingdo - your observation is a fundamental issue I have with this soap. Out of something like 30 to 40 soaps & creams that I have used, it is the only one that has given me any kind of persistent lathering trouble. While I think I have de-bugged it for the most part, the dissapating lathering problem reappears on me from time to time, which I have countered by always making a large batch of lather to reapply as needed, just in case. The pics above of the stable, lasting lathering in people's hands and arms? I was able to do that & then I would put it on my face and watch it start dissipating; my face just ate it up. Don't know why, but something would change when it went on my face. What I figured out is that it requires ALOT of protolather in the beginning and that you must go VERY slow with the water in the beginning to counteract the dissapating lathering issue. For this reason, it is a primarily weekend soap for me as I usually don't have time to mess with it during the workweek. The only reason why I continue to use it despite all of this is that the post-shave feel is absolutely incredible - better than any soap or cream I have ever used, by a wide margin. With persistence & guidance from Celestino, I've finally gotten it to work well enuf for me that I keep it in the rotation.

+1 on Stirling - zero issues

Once you can consistently nail Mystic Waters, there are few that stack up to it on performance. Additionally, its a great price per ounce and the artisan is a wonderful person, and very involved in the community as well as generous. MW is an incredible soap and the scent variety is unreal.

I say for anyone having issues with Mystic Waters, start with a synthetic brush first because that was the key for me. After nailing it several times I was able to transition to badgers but the synthetic was key. Additionally, there is a gentleman that goes by Merkur Man, who had an incredible video which reversed the way I lather. Loading soap and water at the beginning is huge and I never thought of doing it this way. Load, add water, load, add water, boom. Shiny perfect lather.

Great points SCShaver! Btw I'm very happy to see you here mate . Haven't seen your forum tag in some time.

Yessir. Still at a couple but this one looks really promising Neo.

So I tried MW about 2 or 3 years ago and it gave me fits.  I could never get consistent lather no matter who helped me so I finally ended up selling it on BST.  Fast forward to present time.  I ordered 6 MW soaps (5 of which I love the smell of).  I've "used" it twice, and done about 4 or 5 more test lathers.  I am working hard to get things right so the lather is usable to me.  Today my order of Stirling Soap arrived, and I used it never having used Stirling before.  Just like every soap but MW I got a great lather first try.

I am certain MW is a great soap, but I wonder if it is really worth this effort.  celestinoas offered to skype with me to help me out, but honestly I don't think any soap should need someone to skype to see what is wrong with a technique.  Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Nice to hear you had success with Stirling. I find it to be one of the easiest soaps to lather and the performance is second to none.

As for MW, I'm surprised there hasn't been a formula change due to the number of people having lathering issues. I remember when this was brought up at another board last year, but not many were in favor of it. I suppose if you aren't having issues with a soap then you wouldn't think it necessary to change the formula, and one might worry that the new formula won't perform as well as the original. However, B&M and Stirling are two artisans that proved a formula change can satisfy those who had lathering issues and not upset any who did not. I never had a problem lathering B&M White Label in hard or soft water, but I'm happy to hear the Glissant base has proved easier to lather for those who did have issues with the original formula. I believe Stirling's issues were inconsistent quality and an odor issue, both of which I have not experienced since I started using Stirling after the formula or ingredients change.