#21

Maker of Soaps and Shaver of Men
Cooperstown, NY, USA
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2016, 04:31 AM by Barrister_N_Mann.)
To address a point made on the companion to this thread, selling products in the EU is not as simple as just "listing the potential allergens." First, you need to make sure that the fragrance complies with IFRA regulation. If you're buying fragrances within the US, even pre-made ones from places like Brambleberry and Nature's Garden, that is not necessarily going to be the case with every fragrance you purchase. And, I can tell you from experience, the IFRA Manual of Practice is not an especially accessible or user-friendly document.

Then you have to get the base certified for every single product. Each scent is regarded as a separate product, and so must be certified separately. For some manufacturers, that could be 5-10 soaps. For a very prolific soapmaker like CaD314, that could be upward of 20 or 30. That gets expensive very, very rapidly, especially for tallow soaps, which have special restrictions due to BSE and scrapie considerations. You must also have each fragrance certified independently and get an allergen declaration; there are several fragrance manufacturers who don't wish to part with that information, so that can become very difficult very quickly.

After that, you must have an agent in the EU to serve as the responsible party and importer. That means that they take on the legal responsibility in case anything goes wrong. Tough to find, especially if you're a smaller company. Most importers are gun shy about taking on the legal problems of a foreign manufacturer, though there are some who will do it.

Finally, you have to ship the stuff. Darn difficult to get an alcohol-based aftershave across the Atlantic, but it can be done. Expensive, though. And what happens if you're simply not familiar with the legal system in the EU, as many American soap manufacturers aren't? I'm a trained attorney and I'm in no way comfortable navigating the European legal system. My best friend happens to be quite well versed in international commerce law (and she's partly doing the work to get some of our products certified for sale in the EU), but, for anyone else, they'd have to hire an attorney, which can rapidly become a very expensive and time-intensive endeavor. To many American artisans, it's not worth it, and I can certainly understand their position.

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“You could leave life right now. Let that determine what you do and say and think.” – Marcus Aurelius

Fine grooming products at Barrister and Mann.  Smile www.barristerandmann.com
#22
Today will be the LAST time I complain about shipping prices in the US lol. Jeebus.....

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#23
(04-19-2016, 04:30 AM)Barrister_N_Mann Wrote: To address a point made on the companion to this thread, selling products in the EU is not as simple as just "listing the potential allergens." First, you need to make sure that the fragrance complies with IFRA regulation. If you're buying fragrances within the US, even pre-made ones from places like Brambleberry and Nature's Garden, that is not necessarily going to be the case with every fragrance you purchase. And, I can tell you from experience, the IFRA Manual of Practice is not an especially accessible or user-friendly document.

Then you have to get the base certified for every single product. Each scent is regarded as a separate product, and so must be certified separately. For some manufacturers, that could be 5-10 soaps. For a very prolific soapmaker like CaD314, that could be upward of 20 or 30. That gets expensive very, very rapidly, especially for tallow soaps, which have special restrictions due to BSE and scrapie considerations. You must also have each fragrance certified independently and get an allergen declaration; there are several fragrance manufacturers who don't wish to part with that information, so that can become very difficult very quickly.

After that, you must have an agent in the EU to serve as the responsible party and importer. That means that they take on the legal responsibility in case anything goes wrong. Tough to find, especially if you're a smaller company. Most importers are gun shy about taking on the legal problems of a foreign manufacturer, though there are some who will do it.

Finally, you have to ship the stuff. Darn difficult to get an alcohol-based aftershave across the Atlantic, but it can be done. Expensive, though. And what happens if you're simply not familiar with the legal system in the EU, as many American soap manufacturers aren't? I'm a trained attorney and I'm in no way comfortable navigating the European legal system. My best friend happens to be quite well versed in international commerce law (and she's partly doing the work to get some of our products certified for sale in the EU), but, for anyone else, they'd have to hire an attorney, which can rapidly become a very expensive and time-intensive endeavor. To many American artisans, it's not worth it, and I can certainly understand their position.
Thanks for the information, Barrister_N_Mann. I would imagine European artisans must also go through some of the hoops, but could certainly see, how some EU importers could be shy about taking responsibility for a non-EU cosmetic product (especially for brands with a relatively short track record, vs something like Pond's skin cream).
Btw, could you comment on why PannaCrema does not list potential allergens on the Nuavia packagings? Could it be because the (natural) allergens are below amounts considered unsafe (therefore exempt)? (E.g. linalool present in lavender EO.)

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#24

Member
Luxembourg
(04-19-2016, 06:56 AM)ask4Edge Wrote: Btw, could you comment on why PannaCrema does not list potential allergens on the Nuavia packagings? Could it be because the (natural) allergens are below amounts considered unsafe (therefore exempt)? (E.g. linalool present in lavender EO.)

Maybe you can ask PannaCrema directly...

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#25
Thanks for the link, 2e20. Sent them a PM.

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#26

Maker of Soaps and Shaver of Men
Cooperstown, NY, USA
Actually, I'd love for him to contribute to the thread because I honestly have no idea and am quite curious as to the answer.

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“You could leave life right now. Let that determine what you do and say and think.” – Marcus Aurelius

Fine grooming products at Barrister and Mann.  Smile www.barristerandmann.com
#27
Ok Gents,
got a prompt and cordial reply from Marco. Indeed: the allergens in their fragrances are way below the limit at which it is mandatory to list them on the packaging.

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#28

Maker of Soaps and Shaver of Men
Cooperstown, NY, USA
(04-19-2016, 01:53 PM)ask4Edge Wrote: Ok Gents,
got a prompt and cordial reply from Marco. Indeed: the allergens in their fragrances are way below the limit at which it is mandatory to list them on the packaging.

With that much lavender, I'm honestly a bit surprised. Good on you, PannaCrema. Smile

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“You could leave life right now. Let that determine what you do and say and think.” – Marcus Aurelius

Fine grooming products at Barrister and Mann.  Smile www.barristerandmann.com
#29
This thread is a very useful real-world example of the effects of regulation and taxation on international trade and commerce.

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#30

Member
Surrey, UK
(04-19-2016, 02:51 PM)gerlof.rienstra Wrote: One of the many things I hate about the European Union aka the mob in Brussels.
And quicker out, the better.Evilgrin
David


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