Artificial scarcity

Good point. No one said we had a healthy balance in this hobby!

Some folks do, others not so much. It is minimalism vs excess, shaving tools as a means to an end or as the end themselves. I don't think it is so much a case of intolerance as two groups with differing focal points and interests, albeit with some overlap. Oh well, I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles. Once the dust settles, everything will sort itself out.

I never meant to cause you any sorrow.
I never meant to cause you any pain.
I only wanted one time to see you shaving.
I only wanted to see you shaving in the purple rain...

On the subject of market forces, I will voice the unpopular opinion that the current market is extremely unstable. You have larger/more visible artisanal manufacturers like B&M, RazoRock, L&L, etc., but it's the little places that are the problem. Most of those folks have day jobs, and so are not dependent upon actually turning any kind of real profit. They're killing the dedicated soap houses in a death-by-a-thousand-cuts fashion; the more of them there are, the more tiny chunks come out of the revenue of everyone else, not just the larger companies. In the long term, this may bear fruit and force manufacturers to continue to innovate, but the problem is that the companies who just sort of plod along have no reason to drop out because they're not dependent upon the income.

Traditional capitalistic economics are sort of handicapped here. This is not a normal market, and normal market forces are somewhat muted by virtue of the fact that small/unprofitable firms are not closing up shop because their income is heavily supplemented. If the artisan soap world is to continue, then some sort of equilibrium is going to have to be reached.

I agree with Will here. There is no market force making any of these hobby businesses go out of business which is what should happen in a market. So, it's not really a market.

I wonder if you, not you personally but the American artisans as a whole, have to comply with any regulation, not the European specifically. Or you just make a soap and offer it to us. Chanel was an example. In Europe, from the smallest to the largest company, they have to comply with them to stay in business.
I know that European artisans have to comply with the strict cosmetic regulations we have here. Americans can't be sold here because they need to be certified, EU knows that most are uncertified and takes measures. Most vendors, if not all, would love to sell the most famous American artisanal products but they simply can't, if they want to be legal.
It's not exactly a matter of trust to me, but a matter of health.
Don't get me wrong, since we're having this interesting discussion I want to tell you that I had problems with some of your soaps in the past. I don't know if it was an ingredient or an EO/FO that caused these issues, but I had to stop using them. This is not something knew, I sent you an email regarding this matter a few months ago. I gave them to friends. I hope they enjoy them more that I did. I don't have allergies in general or a sensitive skin, so it seemed strange to me. I've tried about 7 B&Ms, including samples, some of them didn't agree with me. Skin irritation, bumps etc. I now have one B&M. I don't use it regularly. I'm not saying that I don't trust you as a maker, I'm saying that I stopped using B&M, because I believe they are not for me. If you were certified, believe me, I'd be more sure about your products regarding allergies. That's why regulations are so important for both the makers and the consumers. Again(!), I'm not referring to the European specifically, but strict cosmetic regulations in general. Name them American. If I knew that the American cosmetic regulations were stricter, you bet I'd have tried a lot more American artisanal products. I just want to be sure about a product. At this moment, I can't be sure about most of the Americans. Even you said in your earlier post that your Reserve scents comply with some regulations, but I can't recall any of your posts referring to your other lines. Is it a reason why some of us had problems with them? I know believe that scents were probably causing the issues I had.

We do not, not in the sense of certification and all that. Congress tried passing legislation. Americans as a whole balked and the bill was killed. Probably not going to happen anytime soon.

The only regulations we must abide by are the cosmetic labeling laws, which are governed by the CPB or whatever, and they don't have the funding to go after all the hobbyists and actually enforce the rules.

That said, most of us larger artisans actually abide by the EU cert rules and could get certification easily if we so choosed. However, there's absolutely no economic reason to do so. You are incorrect in that those EU resellers really really really want our product. They do not. If they did, they would be the "front person" as required by EU laws. In the absence of said front person, we would have to either find someone or do it ourselves. Again, simply not worth it. We're not going to sell that much soap wholesale to make the process worthwhile. It'd be a 5 year payback. That's just stupid. I'm not going to do it unless some large distributor promises to order 1,000 tins a year.

Just my two cents, but the market will take care of almost all of these issues. Nikos has reactions to the Barrister and Mann soaps, so he won't-and shouldn't-buy them. Me, I've got just about everything Will has made, and they are consistently excellent soaps for me. I'll continue to buy them. Just grabbed the Le Grand Chypre bundle and the Barrister's Reserve Classic Bundle because I don't have those, and I've liked every B&M product I've tried (with the exception of a couple whose scent the wife just said no to )

If someone puts out a terrible soap that causes bad reactions in a large group of users, that information will get out quickly, and that soap maker will be out of business very soon.

As Will has already pointed out, it is not a market as defined by Adam Smith. It's this weird insulated and perverse hobby market.

I can assure you, I've heard plenty of stories to be able to conclude that that is not the case. They just change their name and carry on. Or sometimes don't even bother changing their name. Just up and move to a different state or stop selling at certain farmer's markets or whatever. Within the forums, yes, they'd be shunned. But the forums are not even remotely close to the be all end all of the wet shaving marketplace.

Traditional capitalistic economics are sort of handicapped here. This is not a normal market, and normal market forces are somewhat muted by virtue of the fact that small/unprofitable firms are not closing up shop because their income is heavily supplemented. If the artisan soap world is to continue, then some sort of equilibrium is going to have to be reached...

Actually, that IS capitalism. Notice the recent market loss by Gillette to small upstart companies who are now large, e.g., Dollar Shave Club & Harrry's. This is only because of the power of the Internet. The same Internet that gives power to the large shaving soap makers also creates a level playing field for small Mom & Pop makers. I don't think it is so much a "death from a thousand cuts" as mentioned, but rather a stark realization that with Internet wet shaving products sales the people who buy these are fickle by their very nature. These are not our grandpas who just bought a puck of whatever was cheapest at the store 75 yrs. ago, but people who by their very existence in the small fringe of DE/SE shavers are adventurous and experimental. They like to roam about and try things new. Asking for loyalty in a market such as this is like asking for abstinence from a nymphomaniac. There is just too much novelty, innovation and new stuff to resist for many. However, there can be a downside with too much new product introduction that was the case just a year or so ago with one large Internet vendor. It seemed they were introducing new soaps at a breakneck speed and loyal buyers slowly dropped away as they realized "SOS with a slightly different smell". Customers became jaded.

This is a tough & unpredictable niche market IMO. If I were a soap maker I would marry a rich woman just in case.  

Traditional capitalistic economics are sort of handicapped here. This is not a normal market, and normal market forces are somewhat muted by virtue of the fact that small/unprofitable firms are not closing up shop because their income is heavily supplemented. If the artisan soap world is to continue, then some sort of equilibrium is going to have to be reached...

Actually, that IS capitalism. Notice the recent market loss by Gillette to small upstart companies who are now large, e.g., Dollar Shave Club & Harrry's. This is only because of the power of the Internet. The same Internet that gives power to the large shaving soap makers also creates a level playing field for small Mom & Pop makers. I don't think it is so much a "death from a thousand cuts" as mentioned, but rather a stark realization that with Internet wet shaving products sales the people who buy these are fickle by their very nature. These are not our grandpas who just bought a puck of whatever was cheapest at the store 75 yrs. ago, but people who by their very existence in the small fringe of DE/SE shavers are adventurous and experimental. They like to roam about and try things new. Asking for loyalty in a market such as this is like asking for abstinence from a nymphomaniac. There is just too much novelty, innovation and new stuff to resist for many. However, there can be a downside with too much new product introduction that was the case just a year or so ago with one large Internet vendor. It seemed they were introducing new soaps at a breakneck speed and loyal buyers slowly dropped away as they realized "SOS with a slightly different smell". Customers became jaded.

This is a tough & unpredictable niche market IMO. If I were a soap maker I would marry a rich woman just in case.  

Oh no, it's DEFINITELY capitalism. Just not in the sense that you'd think of market forces and collapsing firms, à la Adam Smith. You're absolutely right, though: there is no loyalty because there is so much supply, so novelty is king. Extremely unpredictable and cutthroat. He who figures out how to make the jump to mainstream grooming first will win.

Wow, I posted in this thread a while ago, and it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

I'll add one comment (which may have been addressed before, so apologies if I didn't read every post):

Soap, in particular, does not simply suffer from being a product with low barrier to entry (it doesn't take much investment in plant or equipment to start a hobby enterprise), it is also a product where owning additional amounts of it results in decreasing marginal utility. In other words, most wetshavers buy more soap than they need. If you think about it, if we all used one tub/puck at a time, then we'd only buy four or five a year. I personally have 18 full size (4 oz or more) soaps, and it will take me a long time to go through them.

What this means is, the marginal demand for soaps that sustains the artisan industry is primarily driven by want, not need. That's another way of saying that Will is right that when there is an excess of supply in most customers' inventory, then their marginal purchase choices are driven by novelty/whims/desires. This is what makes the industry unstable. There is a great irony here. Shaving, on an industrial level, is viewed as a stable business because up until recently, societal mores dictated that men needed to shave every day. Hence Warren Buffett invests in Gillette -- a true definition of a monopoly. Men in particular are reliable repeat customers of familiar products. Once you become an aficionado, that all changes.

...He who figures out how to make the jump to mainstream grooming first will win.

I have thought that as well in the past, but now I am not so sure. I just cannot see DE/SE wet shaving going mainstream again at this point. It would take something on a national level to "jumpstart" it and that may be a case of being careful what one wishes for as you don't want the Big Boys getting back into this on a national level with their "scorched earth" marketing.

...He who figures out how to make the jump to mainstream grooming first will win.

I have thought that as well in the past, but now I am not so sure. I just cannot see DE/SE wet shaving going mainstream again at this point. It would take something on a national level to "jumpstart" it and that may be a case of being careful what one wishes for as you don't want the Big Boys getting back into this on a national level with their "scorched earth" marketing.  

No, I think it will be more a result of what we learn from the wet shaving world than wet shaving itself. Performance is so paramount that the hobbyist world is like an evolutionary incubator; the stuff coming out of most of the top manufacturers is miles ahead of most mainstream commercial work.

I hear you Tbone but really, thats what these forums are about aren't they?  Talking about stuff that may interest us and going down countless rabbit holes?  I understand that the primary purpose for creating forums is to market products but it doesn't have to be solely about that, we can discuss all sorts of other shaving related things as well and even non-shaving topics in the lounge.  I like that we can engage directly with artisans about their products both current and planned but many of those people are wet shaving enthusiasts as well and will engage in discussions on various subjects.  At the end of the day if a thread doesn't interest me I don't read it.  Unless of course it has the makings of an impending dust-up.  Those are always fun

I disagree with your point on the primary purpose for creating a forum.  on most forums out there outside of the shaving world, a forum is for discussing hobbies, crafts, vehicles, etc. - not for really marketing a product unless a creator of said product has a forum on their site.  

sad to say that I think a few shaving forums out there have flipped this dynamic where discussion is most definitely stifled and geared towards certain products.  this is one of the main reasons I brought DFS back to life again: I want people to be able to freely talk about all aspects of wet shaving with minimal rules (sane rules IMHO) and not have the fear or being shunned or banned for having a different perspective on things.

Sorry, I didn't mean it in a bad way - I can find out about all sorts of products from other users or the makers themselves, I can buy them or in some cases have things loaned/pif'd to me or do the same for others and I can share my own experiences. Yes its much more than marketing but I do think that marketing done right like it is here is still an important aspect of the forum.

I had very limited experience with other forums but most recently for that week that my service provider for some reason couldn't load DFS, I did go once or twice onto the reddit shaving forum. Not for me. I'm happy here.

Traditional capitalistic economics are sort of handicapped here. This is not a normal market, and normal market forces are somewhat muted by virtue of the fact that small/unprofitable firms are not closing up shop because their income is heavily supplemented. If the artisan soap world is to continue, then some sort of equilibrium is going to have to be reached...

Actually, that IS capitalism. Notice the recent market loss by Gillette to small upstart companies who are now large, e.g., Dollar Shave Club & Harrry's. This is only because of the power of the Internet. The same Internet that gives power to the large shaving soap makers also creates a level playing field for small Mom & Pop makers. I don't think it is so much a "death from a thousand cuts" as mentioned, but rather a stark realization that with Internet wet shaving products sales the people who buy these are fickle by their very nature. These are not our grandpas who just bought a puck of whatever was cheapest at the store 75 yrs. ago, but people who by their very existence in the small fringe of DE/SE shavers are adventurous and experimental. They like to roam about and try things new. Asking for loyalty in a market such as this is like asking for abstinence from a nymphomaniac. There is just too much novelty, innovation and new stuff to resist for many. However, there can be a downside with too much new product introduction that was the case just a year or so ago with one large Internet vendor. It seemed they were introducing new soaps at a breakneck speed and loyal buyers slowly dropped away as they realized "SOS with a slightly different smell". Customers became jaded.

This is a tough & unpredictable niche market IMO. If I were a soap maker I would marry a rich woman just in case.  

Its always prudent to marry rich . Marrying rich is second only to being born rich as the best way to become wealthy and its followed by a far, far distant third option, working for it. Its hard and too uncertain.