Tallow + Steel

Now I have two T+S soaps to look forward to! Keeping on the theme of my recent posts (if you've not seen them its Bay Rum), however, can we look forward to a Grog 2 at some not too distant point in the future? I liked Dark and Dark 2 was incredible and I like Grog so I'm figuring a Grog 2 would be spectacular .

Dark 2 is an outstanding soap. I've never had the opportunity to try Grog, I'll love to try its reissue.

We have something with bay coming up later this year! I think it’s going to be really cool.

That sounds great Ryan, I'm intrigued and will definitely be looking forward to that one.

So tell me, as an artisan working in the biz and one, I might add, that is very successful and innovative, what the heck is it about bay as a scent that so many artisans don't want to go near? Some are openly dismissive and others won't even address it while others wholeheartedly embrace it (PAA). I think bay is an amazing scent that can be either a main or a supporting element in all sorts of creatively wonderful scents. It doesn't always have to be combined with rum nor does it have to appear as the "off the shelf bay rum" scent that you can buy by the gallon from the various vendors of fragrance oils. Unfortunately a lot of soap/aftershave makers (as distinguished from artisans) use that bay rum mix so that they can have a bay rum in their lineup. Thats fine and I don't mind that mix, its just that I see no reason to have multiple soaps/aftershaves from different makers that all smell exactly the same. I tell you there's few things more disappointing than buying a bay rum product based on marketing superlatives only to find that its another product scented with XYZ Co.'s generic bay rum blend #43, or worse, its scent is barely discernible as anything at all - the maker wanted to have a bay rum in their line up but couldn't bring themselves to actually put any bay rum in the product. I get that some people don't like it, maybe even hate it and its certainly an artisan's prerogative to make whatever they want but don't call something Bay rum when it isn't.

There are some really nice bay inspired scents out there that are clearly not "bay rum" but still fall squarely in the Bay family - CL Blackberry Blossom Bay, CB Barnegat Bay, PAA Kiritimati, GD Mandarin Bay to name a few. There are also those products that are labeled bay rum such as Mystic Water's or B&M's that are the maker's unique take on bay rum.

So.... not to put any pressure on you, but I have high hopes for this bay scent you have in the works. Based on your past performance I think those hopes are well founded.

Great comments Mark! I love a good chat about scents. Let me address them below.

So tell me, as an artisan working in the biz and one, I might add, that is very successful and innovative, what the heck is it about bay as a scent that so many artisans don't want to go near?  Some are openly dismissive and others won't even address it while others wholeheartedly embrace it (PAA).

I think there are 3 possible answers here.

1. The scent of pimenta racemosa oil is quite spicy and pungent, and as you know, many people don't like it. Creating a product that you know many customers won't buy is not something that all artisans want to do, or can afford to do. When you rely on these products for your income to pay the bills, it just isn't a smart business decision. I think that is an advantage that we have. (Part time forever over here)

2. Bay Rum is overdone. As you mentioned, you can buy all sorts of Bay Rums from different makers. And it's hard to use the oil in blends without it being classified as a "Bay" scent.

3. Availability. It is becoming increasingly difficult to source the oil, and the quality can be quite bad. When I noticed this happening, I bought a large quantity of some good stuff so we are good for a while still.

I think bay is an amazing scent that can be either a main or a supporting element in all sorts of creatively wonderful scents.  It doesn't always have to be combined with rum nor does it have to appear as the "off the shelf bay rum" scent that you can buy by the gallon from the various vendors of fragrance oils.  Unfortunately a lot of soap/aftershave makers (as distinguished from artisans) use that bay rum mix so that they can have a bay rum in their lineup.  Thats fine and I don't mind that mix, its just that I see no reason to have multiple soaps/aftershaves from different makers that all smell exactly the same.  I tell you there's few things more disappointing than buying a bay rum product based on marketing superlatives only to find that its another product scented with XYZ Co.'s generic bay rum blend #43, or worse, its scent is barely discernible as anything at all - the maker wanted to have a bay rum in their line up but couldn't bring themselves to actually put any bay rum in the product.  I get that some people don't like it, maybe even hate it and its certainly an artisan's prerogative to make whatever they want but don't call something Bay rum when it isn't.    

There are some really nice bay inspired scents out there that are clearly not "bay rum" but still fall squarely in the Bay family - CL Blackberry Blossom Bay, CB Barnegat Bay, PAA Kiritimati, GD Mandarin Bay to name a few.  There are also those products that are labeled bay rum such as Mystic Water's or B&M's that are the maker's unique take on bay rum.

I agree. Grog and West Indies are both examples of scents we've done that have a bay element, but you wouldn't call a Bay Rum - Grog would come close though. And sure, some companies use a generic bay rum fragrance oil, like many artisans do for fragrance dupes etc. I don't see anything wrong with that, and there is a place for them in the market - especially if they are priced cheaper than the competition. Hopefully they have a good product description so you can know which ones you will find too generic before you purchase.
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So.. not to put any pressure on you, but I have high hopes for this bay scent you have in the works.  Based on your past performance I think those hopes are well founded.  

No pressure!

I, myself, love bay rum scents, especially when it's the more forward scent. I also bought a bar of soap from an artisan shop in Colorado a few years back that used bay leaves and orange, that smelled amazing as well.

Thanks for the thoughtful response Ryan. I agree that the conventional bay rum is overdone which is why the unconventional, bay "inspired" scents are such a treat. The ones I mentioned and, of course, Grog and West Indies are unique masterpieces that stand on their own.

I don't doubt that working with bay as a scent note can be challenging but who said artistry would be easy? We all know that many artisans do not blend their own scents so it just stands to reason that you'll come across duplicates. I posted on that a while back. I also understand that people have to make money and you do that by selling product so why would you make product that doesn't sell? You can take that logic to to its ultimate conclusion, however, and you'll end up at the mass market people who sell a product that will offend the least number of people. No risk involved just economics and that is just no fun at all. Furthermore, I had an exchange a while back with B&M Will wherein I seem to recall that he said his bay rum soap/aftershave were his biggest seller. ( I'll try to track down the post just so I can put my own mind at rest as to whether that's an accurate recollection). Sometimes a business model reinforces an inaccurate perception - say you're a maker of an upper mid average range of shaving products, and you decide to make a bay rum line. You use the generic off the shelf fragrance just like you always do because you have no skill in scent. You surround the new line with marketing sizzle and release it. People (some) buy it and are disappointed. Word gets around and your sales dwindle. Nobody is interested in another generic bay rum in an average soap/aftershave base so you tell yourself - see, I never should have made that bay rum line because it just doesn't sell. Wrong! A poorly executed, mediocre product in a generic bay rum scent doesn't sell. Up your game or stick to your strengths, whatever that might be.

Obviously you don't fall into that description of a hypothetical soap maker and that's what we like about you. T+S has always taken risks and laid it on the line. When you do this you will have hits and misses and you will not please everybody but when you hit....man, it's worth it. Thats why I'm excited about the bay inspired scent you mentioned you were looking at releasing later this year. It could be great. I want it to be great. It will be great.

I'm still hoping you'll consider a Grog 2 or even a West Indies 2 eventually. Mastepeices can always be tweaked without disrespecting the original. I listened to a podcast recently - Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History Season 1, episode 7 Hallelujah where he talks about two kinds of creative genius. First is the Picasso model where the genius happens in a single flash - boom, its perfect and then the other model he named after the artist Chagall who would work and re-work his paintings until they were perfect and in Chagall's mind they were never perfect and therefore never finished. Gladwell discusses how long it took Leonard Cohen to finish writing his masterpiece Hallelujah - it took years. If you're interested in the podcast its here:

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/07-hallelujah

West Indies is one of the best scents I've tried, if you're looking at doing more bay scents, I'll be looking.

I, myself, love bay rum scents, especially when it's the more forward scent. I also bought a bar of soap from an artisan shop in Colorado a few years back that used bay leaves and orange, that smelled amazing as well.

Nice Andrew! I love both bay + lime and bay + orange.

Thanks for the thoughtful response Ryan.  I agree that the conventional bay rum is overdone which is why the unconventional, bay "inspired" scents are such a treat.  The ones I mentioned and, of course, Grog and West Indies are unique masterpieces that stand on their own.

I don't doubt that working with bay as a scent note can be challenging but who said artistry would be easy?  We all know that many artisans do not blend their own scents so it just stands to reason that you'll come across duplicates.  I posted on that a while back.  I also understand that people have to make money and you do that by selling product so why would you make product that doesn't sell?  You can take that logic to to its ultimate conclusion, however, and you'll end up at the mass market people who sell a product that will offend the least number of people.  No risk involved just economics and that is just no fun at all.  Furthermore, I had an exchange a while back with B&M Will wherein I seem to recall that he said his bay rum soap/aftershave were his biggest seller. ( I'll try to track down the post just so I can put my own mind at rest as to whether that's an accurate recollection).  Sometimes a business model reinforces an inaccurate perception - say you're a maker of an upper mid average range of shaving products, and you decide to make a bay rum line.  You use the generic off the shelf fragrance just like you always do because you have no skill in scent.  You surround the new line with marketing sizzle and release it.  People (some) buy it and are disappointed.  Word gets around and your sales dwindle.  Nobody is interested in another generic bay rum in an average soap/aftershave base so you tell yourself - see, I never should have made that bay rum line because it just doesn't sell.  Wrong!  A poorly executed, mediocre product in a generic bay rum scent doesn't sell.  Up your game or stick to your strengths, whatever that might be.  

Yeah, you bring up some good points here. As goofy as it sounds, maximum $$ sales are never really our goal. The goal is always to create something different, do something that nobody else is doing, and hope that people appreciate it. Later in the year we are going to release a product that I expect many people to just not buy.. I can almost hear the controversy already! No spoilers yet, but I will say that we have hired an organic chemist to do some research for us.

To your last point - Luckily in the wetshaving world, there is such an active online community filled with reviews and discussion. I think that if you make a product and it doesn't sell well, you would be able to do some digging in forums and groups to hopefully find out why.

Obviously you don't fall into that description of a hypothetical soap maker and that's what we like about you.  T+S has always taken risks and laid it on the line.  When you do this you will have hits and misses and you will not please everybody but when you hit....man, it's worth it.  Thats why I'm excited about the bay inspired scent you mentioned you were looking at releasing later this year.  It could be great.  I want it to be great.  It will be great.

Yes isn't that the truth! We can afford to take risks so we will continue to do so.

I'm still hoping you'll consider a Grog 2 or even a West Indies 2 eventually.  Mastepeices can always be tweaked without disrespecting the original.  I listened to a podcast recently - Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History Season 1, episode 7 Hallelujah where he talks about two kinds of creative genius.  First is the Picasso model where the genius happens in a single flash - boom, its perfect and then the other model he named after the artist Chagall who would work and re-work his paintings until they were perfect and in Chagall's mind they were never perfect and therefore never finished.  Gladwell discusses how long it took Leonard Cohen to finish writing his masterpiece Hallelujah - it took years.  If you're interested in the podcast its here:

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/07-hallelujah

Grog 2 may come at some point. That's interesting! You are very kind, but I would not call anything I've created remotely close to a masterpiece! I do love a good podcast though. The other day I listed to Bob Lazar on Joe Rogan - that one really had my head spinning, and I still don't know what to make of it. Anyone catch that?

West Indies is one of the best scents I've tried, if you're looking at doing more bay scents, I'll be looking.

Awesome! Thanks for the kind words. Probably fall/winter.

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We also just updated our website with a new design, if anyone is interested check it out and post any thoughts if you have them - appreciate it!

Ryan as always the website is visually stunning with some beautiful photographs but more importantly with all this 2 chat what about classic, it is truly a classic that many people could get behind


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