Preservatives - There's a Reason

I’d like to keep a lively discussion going and I realize that probably all of us have had a suboptimal experience at some point but I’d like it if we can stay away from naming names. That’s unproductive and not the purpose of this thread...

I understand and agree with that and uphold that UNTIL after a resolution or loggerhead is reached. After the dust has settled then it is incumbent to be honest as well as a favor to other potential buyers to understand how certain vendors do business. If you're worried about losing an advertiser then simply say as such so we can know where you stand. I was a raised to be an honest & forthcoming man. I won't deviate from that. Your move.

I’m not worried about losing advertising revenue, heck, I don’t even know what that is. I’m interested in getting a positive and informative dialogue going that involves the knowledge and experience of those in the trenches-the soap makers and if this thread descends into griping about perceived injustice or shoddy treatment at the hands of specific people, then I think it might inhibit the useful flow of information. If you want to start a thread to discuss your experiences then by all means do so. You have seen threads  that do that and as long as they comply with the very few rules DFS has then it’s fair game. I don’t disagree with you that it’s helpful to all the members that both + and - experiences are discussed, but that isn’t the purpose of this thread. Thank you for your cooperation.

I’d like to keep a lively discussion going and I realize that probably all of us have had a suboptimal experience at some point but I’d like it if we can stay away from naming names. That’s unproductive and not the purpose of this thread...

I understand and agree with that and uphold that UNTIL after a resolution or loggerhead is reached. After the dust has settled then it is incumbent to be honest as well as a favor to other potential buyers to understand how certain vendors do business. If you're worried about losing an advertiser then simply say as such so we can know where you stand. I was a raised to be an honest & forthcoming man. I won't deviate from that. Your move.

I’m not worried about losing advertising revenue, heck, I don’t even know what that is. I’m interested in getting a positive and informative dialogue going that involves the knowledge and experience of those in the trenches-the soap makers and if this thread descends into griping about perceived injustice or shoddy treatment at the hands of specific people, then I think it might inhibit the useful flow of information. If you want to start a thread to discuss your experiences then by all means do so. You have seen threads  that do that and as long as they comply with the very few rules DFS has then it’s fair game. I don’t disagree with you that it’s helpful to all the members that both + and - experiences are discussed, but that isn’t the purpose of this thread. Thank you for your cooperation.

You handled that fairly & diplomatically. Kudos.

When I decided to post this thread I was hoping it could be one of those useful threads that can not just inform members but improve their shaving experience.  I don't know everything about preservatives in shaving soap but I was hoping to leverage the wealth of knowledge existing in our membership and particularly our Merchant base.  What preservatives are and the different kinds.  Why preservatives, or some form of preservation strategy are essential?  Why you should consider scooping and bowl lathering? How best to scoop and bowl lather?  Is some form of brush maintenance/cleaning protocol necessary?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not a germaphobe but I do believe in cleanliness and sanitary conditions particularly with respect to personal grooming.  I started own this path a few years ago when a member posted a thread soliciting response to the question - Do you disassemble and rinse your razor after every shave?  Yes/No?  Up to that point I feel int the No camp but it got me thinking and noticing that there was sometimes an accumulation of gunk (technical term for soap scum and whisker bits) in the razor and on the blade.  It varied from razor to razor but I figured, thats kind of gross, how hard can it be to take the razor apart and rinse everything?  So I switched to the Yes camp and have been doing it ever since.  I haven't found that I'm running behind because of the extra minute or two it takes and I haven't cut myself, not even once.  I do it, I like it, I think it has improved my shaving experience.  

Same thing with puck lathering and by association, preservatives.  I've been a face latherer and a bowl latherer but always loading from the puck (soap surface for those soaps not hard enough to be called pucks*) but now that Ive seen first hand some of the nasty stuff that can grow on the surface of shaving soap which can be unsightly, unhealthy and tragic when its one of your favourites that is ruined, I'm scooping and bowl lathering much more often.  There are still those hard soaps that don't scoop well.  I'm hoping this thread can help improve your shaving experience. 



*Every Canadian male of a certain age is well acquainted with the hardness of pucks either directly or indirectly - puck in the mouth - chiclets on the ice, lots of blood 

This is the sort of discussion I was hoping for.  I'm not out to point fingers or name names or anything like that.  I want to understand the soap making process a little better and I'm curious as I think many of the DFS members are.  

Thanks dominicr  and Dragonsbeard  for your replies - tell me then Dom, how do your products stay free from nasty stuff without any preservatives at all?  You can't just be crossing your fingers.  I'm not a biologist but I think I understand from basic food handling that the Ph of a substance is important in regards to risk of bacterial contamination.  I know that higher acidity inhibits bacteria and I'm guessing that high base would too.  What is the Ph of soap that has gone through the saponification process and does that inhibit bacterial growth in normal circumstances?
 
We don't change our soap base around like others, so it's been awhile since I checked the ph level of our soap. I can tell you it's within normal levels for a bar of soap. The ph level of the soap (8-10) is not conducive to mold growth and once your fats go through the saponification process, that's where you'll end up. Where you see mold on a shaving soap (or croap), it's likely due to higher water content and Unsaponified fats, i.e. super fatting.  In my opinion, some makers go too far with the super fatting and the types of fats they choose. It invites trouble.
Bacteria will collect on the soap surface. You won't see it. Especially in the wet lather. Drying your shave soaps thoroughly helps keep this to a minimum. You can search this out online. I'm not sure you'd want enough "preservatives" in your soap to prevent this. Remember, mold & bacteria are not the same thing and I'm not sure you can eliminate bacteria from the surface.

Heres another question - do vegan soaps undergo the same saponification reaction that tallow based soaps do?  Is there lye used that (I assume) would make the soap fairly base in Ph? 
Yes, the fats all have their saponification values that you have account for in your recipe, but they end up in the same place essentially.

What about some of these latest generation of super fatted "soaps" that back in the day we would have called croaps?  Are they technically even soaps or just a mixture of slick ingredients?  If they haven't undergone saponification then will they need preservatives to be stable?  One thing that Frank mentioned was soaps going soupy.  I've had that happen a few times too where the "puck" in the tub just goes to liquid mush - pretty unappealing.  Not sure if thats a preservative issue or a stabilizer issue.

Super fatting does not necessarily make a "croap". It has more to do with moisture content. I would say that most of the croaps you're referring to should probably have some preservative due to the high moisture content and some of the milks used. As far as pucks turning to "liquid mush", I'd say they had too much water to begin with. I would guess all the "croaps" you're referring to are all technically soaps that have gone through some saponification.

Thanks for your detailed response Dom. That’s exactly the sort if information I was looking for.

When I decided to post this thread I was hoping it could be one of those useful threads that can not just inform members but improve their shaving experience.  I don't know everything about preservatives in shaving soap but I was hoping to leverage the wealth of knowledge existing in our membership and particularly our Merchant base.  What preservatives are and the different kinds.  Why preservatives, or some form of preservation strategy are essential?  Why you should consider scooping and bowl lathering? How best to scoop and bowl lather?  Is some form of brush maintenance/cleaning protocol necessary?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not a germaphobe but I do believe in cleanliness and sanitary conditions particularly with respect to personal grooming.  I started own this path a few years ago when a member posted a thread soliciting response to the question - Do you disassemble and rinse your razor after every shave?  Yes/No?  Up to that point I feel int the No camp but it got me thinking and noticing that there was sometimes an accumulation of gunk (technical term for soap scum and whisker bits) in the razor and on the blade.  It varied from razor to razor but I figured, thats kind of gross, how hard can it be to take the razor apart and rinse everything?  So I switched to the Yes camp and have been doing it ever since.  I haven't found that I'm running behind because of the extra minute or two it takes and I haven't cut myself, not even once.  I do it, I like it, I think it has improved my shaving experience.  

Same thing with puck lathering and by association, preservatives.  I've been a face latherer and a bowl latherer but always loading from the puck (soap surface for those soaps not hard enough to be called pucks*) but now that Ive seen first hand some of the nasty stuff that can grow on the surface of shaving soap which can be unsightly, unhealthy and tragic when its one of your favourites that is ruined, I'm scooping and bowl lathering much more often.  There are still those hard soaps that don't scoop well.  I'm hoping this thread can help improve your shaving experience. 



*Every Canadian male of a certain age is well acquainted with the hardness of pucks either directly or indirectly - puck in the mouth - chiclets on the ice, lots of blood 

Drying the soap thoroughly before putting away would be a good general practice.
We would view anything on soap as unacceptable.

Logically it does not make sense to me that a preservative would affect the lathering performance of a cream; yet the older XPEC creams with parabens lather significantly better for me than the newer ones without those preservatives, and I don't see other major ingredient changes.

As others before have said, likely too much water and unsaponified fats are causing issues. MdC cures their soaps for 6 months and AFAIK have no preservatives. I have some that are 10 years old and smell, lather, and look like they always have.

I believe that preservatives in shaving soap are in general a good idea because we on the wet shaving forums likely do not use a soap the way the manufacturer intends, which is to open a tub/package, etc and use it every day until it’s gone.

It seems unsurprising that a watery soap with a high level of unsaponified fats and no or minimal preservatives would have problems if only used once a month or less.

Logically it does not make sense to me that a preservative would affect the lathering performance of a cream; yet the older XPEC creams with parabens lather significantly better for me than the newer ones without those preservatives, and I don't see other major ingredient changes.

It probably can. We changed to a non-parables preservative in our balm awhile back and it changed the consistency of it. We made other adjustments to compensate.


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