Apprenticeships for Artisans

Another thread spiraling over semantics. The difference between employee and apprentice is that the primary purpose of the apprenticeship is to learn. It's like a classroom. An employee may or may not become knowledgeable, but the reason for his employment is primarily to help the owner rather than to become knowledgeable or skilled himself.

I hate to say it, but I think the internet has greatly reduced the need for need for such arrangements for many skills. I know that many of our excellent artisan soap makers were not taught from an old master; they learned online. I, personally, taught myself CAD from online videos and articles. Not all skills are learned that way, of course, but I think the days of trading room/board for a laborer are behind us.

I think this is a very insightful comment, Shane. Thank you.

But let me ask, do you think it is possible you would have learned better or quicker had you trained under someone who is an expert at making razors before you knew anything? Do you think it is possible that if someone learned from you how to make razors, that they would be better at the craft rather then if they only learned online?

I also wonder if apprenticeships are better suited to some products in the industry over others...?

There is something romantic and noble about someone just like you or me leaning a skill to mastery, using that skill to sell a product or service, and working hard to translate that into a profitable independent business that can provide for one's needs outside of a 9-5 job and compete with the corporate giants.

Sure, you just described the American dream.

Of course, one of the problems with being a small time operation is that if your product or service is exceptional and in heavy demand, customers can get put on indefinite wait lists, or must pay exorbitant mark up fees to re-sellers that have an inside track on the supply chain.

You say that like its a "bad" thing. If you are of the "instant gratification" crowd, well such is life  You learn to wait.

I view that as a "good thing". The fewer pieces, the higher the demand, the more valuable the piece. This is not just true in the wet shaving industry but about any industry. There is nothing special going on here.

.   If you want a car high in demand you might need to get on a waiting list for 2 - 3 years and be prepared to wait to get it.

.   If you want a high quality, in demand, pieces in one industry, the current delivery time is 2020.

.   If you want a Tesla Model 3, I hope you already have the deposit down. That is for first deliveries in 2017 and apparently some things aren't even known about the car.

If the piece is a true work of art, then it will go UP in value. So whats the problem? If you want to crank up production, then its no longer "artisan" but a factory.

Another problem for the consumer has to do with it being dependent upon a 1 or 2 person show. If the maker of your favorite soap or fragrance or brush or razor dies of old age, retires, or otherwise goes out of business due to bad accounting, tax issues, marketing issues, or logistic issues; suddenly you no longer have your favorite product. On the other hand, if your favorite after shave is Old Spice, this is a problem you most likely will never have to worry about. (+1 for P&G)

This sounds like a non-issue. Businesses, small or large, go "out of business" all the time. Products we like disappear off the shelf "all the time". I buy something, go to buy it again - gone. No one else likes it. That's called capitalism. New businesses will take over and as technology gets better - the products will be better. I see no problem here.

These are problems that have several solutions. But for this thread, I'd like to focus on one solution in particular; namely, the age old practice of apprenticeship, and passing down specialized knowledge to sons, daughters, and passionate students of the craft.

I don't want to sound contrarian but I think you have created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

IF, in FACT, a small business wanted to expand operations, then they would do so. They don't need help or advice from strangers on the Internet. Whether it be through unpaid interns, apprentices (which surely is a bit old -fashioned) hiring more people, or whatever approach they take, that is up to them. That is how free enterprise works. If they fail, then they fail. If business is booming, then they make a lot of more money. If the go under, and the market is truly hot, three new businesses will pop up and take their place.

In fact, I'll claim that the very problem you are trying to "identify" is actually GOOD for the market as a whole. Let them be as they are. Let the top quality hardware be rare. The Rarer the better for EVERYONE involved. Want the unicorn razor or brush - then WAIT 4 years for it.

Things easily attained have little value. (unknown)

But that one day you do buy that unicorn razor or brush,  you will keep it forever knowing it's a collectible and will go up in value.  And for the software? It's a consumable? So what? One "consumes" consumables. Over the years, they will degrade one way or the other. Use it and move on.  A newer and possibly better product will replace it.

Another thread spiraling over semantics. The difference between employee and apprentice is that the primary purpose of the apprenticeship is to learn. It's like a classroom. An employee may or may not become knowledgeable, but the reason for his employment is primarily to help the owner rather than to become knowledgeable or skilled himself.

I hate to say it, but I think the internet has greatly reduced the need for need for such arrangements for many skills. I know that many of our excellent artisan soap makers were not taught from an old master; they learned online. I, personally, taught myself CAD from online videos and articles. Not all skills are learned that way, of course, but I think the days of trading room/board for a laborer are behind us.

I think this is a very insightful comment, Shane. Thank you.

But let me ask, do you think it is possible you would have learned better or quicker had you trained under someone who is an expert at making razors before you knew anything?  Do you think it is possible that if someone learned from you how to make razors, that they would be better at the craft rather then if they only learned online?

I also wonder if apprenticeships are better suited to some products in the industry over others...?

I just don't think most wet shaving products are the kind of things that require a master mentor. We aren't making samurai swords.

As for me, I prefer to self-teach and learn by doing when I can. I'm going to let you in on a secret: razor design is not terribly complicated. It's nuanced, but the general concept is fairly straightforward. The same goes for nearly every wet shaving product.

Of course, the Wolfman discussion is not really a wetshaving discussion. It's a machining debate. So should machinists do apprenticeships? I would imagine that's a good idea.

I didn't know counting stock = "making razors"... but whatever... Through supremely convoluted twists of logic that defies all semblance of common sense, a person can help 'make razors' without knowing how to make razors.  Maybe the industry of wet shaving is somehow set apart and different from all other crafts and trades.

All I know is that apprenticeships occur in every craft there is, regardless of whether people here understand how that applies to the wet shaving industry.

I once knew a plumber who had an apprentice. I should of told him how stupid he was to have created his own competition down the line when the apprentice moved on, and apparently neither of us had the foresight of the people on this thread.

Regardless of whether you think James is foolish for apprenticing someone to 'make razors' with him, or whether you think Lee Sabini was foolish for apprenticing someone to make brushes with him... I'm interested in this age old practice that continues... and would like to hear more about it from people who are interested as well... and from those who have apprenticed, taught the craft to others, or are interested in doing so.

This seems just a little unnecessary...

Turning blanks to proper size and weight for Jim to finish is, in fact, helping to make razors.

Milling blank caps and baseplates, so Jim can finalize fit, is, in fact, helping to make razors.

Polishing and finalizing finish so Jim can concentrate on exacting the production is, in fact helping to make razors.

None of that requires Jim to pass on his knowledge the way a master would train an apprentice, yet ALL of them are IN FACT helping to make razors.

Why do you post topics to which you have no interest in actual discourse and discussion, but rather seem geared to starting an argument that you will beat to death ad nauseum until other people simply stop replying? Does this help you to feel better in some way? It certainly doesn't advance the discussio in any way...

I agree BadDad, having a machining debate was never my intention. I'd much rather talk about apprenticeships in the world of wet shaving. Glad to be back on track now.

I agree BadDad, having a machining debate was never my intention. I'd much rather talk about apprenticeships in the world of wet shaving. Glad to be back on track now.

I'm not sure how anyone can have a reasonable discussion when every contrary opinion, with solid supporting rationale, is met, by you, with disgust, distaste, and insults. You harass anyone that disagrees with you which makes it very difficult, at best, and downright aggravating to have a discussion...

I never said anyone was foolish, yet those are the words you use to disparage my comments. That is not conducive to open discussion...at all...

I know you want to continue this debate by making it personal, BadDad, but I ain't gonna bite.

If you want to discuss wet shaving apprenticeships, great, if you want to discuss personal matters, shoot me a PM.

Chris, its because Len is never wrong. You aughta know that by now!

***Thread officially derailed***

Len, be proud, you finally did it! Congratulations!