That Bald Guy with the Big Beard
Bishop, CA
I mentioned this last time the 3D printed raZor topic came up but I'll mention it here as well...
Innovation is expensive. R & D followed by prototypes and testing and finally production... You could go through 15 prototypes before you get something that really provides the improvements you are looking for.
With that said I see two really powerful options for 3D printed razors... The low cost of prototyping new designs for a wider beta set and the ability to allow a customer a "design your own razor" campaign without costing hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
It would be considerably less expensive to produce one-off customs utilizing this technology, bringing custom razors to the masses.
It would also allow the creative and bold to experiment a lot more freely without a huge outlay of expense in prototyping.
Technology like this could literally be just the catalyst needed to propel honest and real innovation in the manufacture and design of razors...
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Innovation is expensive. R & D followed by prototypes and testing and finally production... You could go through 15 prototypes before you get something that really provides the improvements you are looking for.
With that said I see two really powerful options for 3D printed razors... The low cost of prototyping new designs for a wider beta set and the ability to allow a customer a "design your own razor" campaign without costing hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
It would be considerably less expensive to produce one-off customs utilizing this technology, bringing custom razors to the masses.
It would also allow the creative and bold to experiment a lot more freely without a huge outlay of expense in prototyping.
Technology like this could literally be just the catalyst needed to propel honest and real innovation in the manufacture and design of razors...
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-Chris~Head Shaver~
Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
(08-18-2016, 01:48 AM)wyze0ne Wrote:(08-17-2016, 09:58 PM)Pete123 Wrote: This could really drive innovation. Many folks, myself included, believe that OneBlade invented a better mouse trap. 3-D printing would allow folks wanting to improve the shaving experience to try many different options without spending a lot.
The way the process works is that whatever you can enter into CAD software, it can print. So, let's say an inventor wanted to try a feature with five different angles. They could print the five angles and let folks try each one.
How much more "innovation" is needed in shaving though? That's what Gillette keeps trying to do with their vibrating 5 bladed gimmicks. I get the best shaves of my life using 100 year old razors. I don't really see the need for improving upon it, especially for the price of some of these. The 3D printing is a cool way to make new designs though, but I just don't see any of the minor tweaks in a blade holding device making that much difference in the actual shave. Just my 2 cents...
there's only so many ways to make a razor, I'd imagine. I guess there real answer is improving upon the existing designs, whether it's better blade gaps, angles, protective coatings, efficiency, handles, grip, weight ratios, etc..
I'd imagine that prototyping the razors on a 3D printer is a lot cheaper than using standard metals. plus, I think it allows more people to experiment with designing stuff than a few years ago where you'd need access to a lathe or CNC machine.
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
Member
Nashville, TN
Exactly. Prototypes have historically been very expensive. In the last year, a friend of mine was quoted $50,k for a prototype of a fairly simple object. Fortunately, I was able to help her figure out how to do it for under $200, though it wasn't as polished looking and didn't have a CAD file.
I have another friend who invented a new kind of fishing pole. He spend a weekend learning how to use some CAD software and was able to 3D print several versions of the handle, which is where the new invention part is.
I also think you hit the nail on the head regarding the basics of razors being similar, though angles, etc... will change. I would expect a improvements over time as well as razors that handle the hard parts for you.
Also, they now have 3D printing for metal - including stainless steel and Chrome. I imagine they can handle zamak, though haven't checked.
I have another friend who invented a new kind of fishing pole. He spend a weekend learning how to use some CAD software and was able to 3D print several versions of the handle, which is where the new invention part is.
I also think you hit the nail on the head regarding the basics of razors being similar, though angles, etc... will change. I would expect a improvements over time as well as razors that handle the hard parts for you.
Also, they now have 3D printing for metal - including stainless steel and Chrome. I imagine they can handle zamak, though haven't checked.
Newbie
Hi folks, I stumbled onto this thread. I am the designer of the Sharkbone, Kraken, etc etc on Shapeways.
I hope I can fill in a few gaps for people:
(1) hrfdez RE: blade alignment, tolerances
I am fanatical about blade alignment, so if you ever see a problem with blade alignment in one of my razors, it's probably a bad print from Shapeways. Bad prints do happen; I have probably had 2 bad prints out of several dozen. When you can demonstrate to them that the print is bad, they will reprint for you, but this might take some back-and-forth with customer support. Took me probably around 10 days to get it sorted last time it happened to me.
The tolerances in the materials I use are 0.1mm, about the width of a razor blade. Many people see that Shapeways can print in metals, so they assume that they could print a razor in one of those; but the tolerances printing in metal at Shapeways is 2mm. Certainly not something you want to trust to hold a razor blade. (This tolerance number comes from both, Shapeways' own material specifications as well as my own testing.)
Some folks are concerned because they hear that nylon does not do well in water. The nylon used at Shapeways is medical grade and you can see from the technical documentation that it's been tested and found to be inert against oil, soap, water - most anything you're going to find in your bathroom. Also, as a reminder, things like toothbrush bristles are made out of nylon; so there are different kinds of nylon out there and some of them are just fine in water. It is possible to melt the nylon, which results in deformation which will ruin the quality of the shave; but you'd have to leave it soaking in >180 deg for quite some time.
There are technologies to use SLS printing with metals. Right now, it's very expensive and Shapeways does not offer that service. When SLS+metal is available at a fair price, I will expand my offerings accordingly. In the meantime, the nylon+aluminium (the grey material) is my recommendation for guys who enjoy the feel of metal. It's quite a bit more expensive than the white nylon, but I prefer to use nylon+aluminium myself.
(2) Cincinnatus RE: 3D printed straight
I considered designing a shavette, but frankly I'm getting pretty good shaves out of my DE designs, so I did not see the need. There has been some interest in a single-edge. I admit I've never used a single-edge, so I'm fairly neutral on that idea. I have a large store of DE blades, and I just don't feel motivated to buy single edge blades and go through the effort to design around a completely different blade than with what I am most familiar.
One of my objectives has been to make good razors inexpensively. I am a hobbyist and make almost no money from my designs posted to Shapeways. Some folks have talked about how 3D printing can be used to inexpensively prototype new designs - and that is correct from most points of view. I have spent far more money on Shapeways prototypes than I've received in returns from sales.
If I were a professional shipping dozens of units at a time, then I might feel more positive about it. :-)
Some folks have suggested that 3D printing gives you the ability to customize to your own preferences. While I agree in the theory of this, it's really hard to make that a real thing to customers. Imagine I could print a razor in any one of nine different aggression levels, analogously to an adjustable. It doesn't help a customer to make a choice, because they don't know what the 1 feels like and they don't know what the 9 feels like; so they cannot really make a great decision about what level of aggression will work for them. The old way of simply reading reviews and getting independent. unbiased information still seems to be the best way for customers to get the information they need to make a good decision.
I could make configurable base-plates, like the Rockwell or ATT; and I have seriously been considering that for my next design(s). That seems like a good compromise in giving a customer a gamut of aggressiveness, while also not forcing them to make a decision with incomplete information.
I hope this is helpful and constructive.
Thanks
I hope I can fill in a few gaps for people:
(1) hrfdez RE: blade alignment, tolerances
I am fanatical about blade alignment, so if you ever see a problem with blade alignment in one of my razors, it's probably a bad print from Shapeways. Bad prints do happen; I have probably had 2 bad prints out of several dozen. When you can demonstrate to them that the print is bad, they will reprint for you, but this might take some back-and-forth with customer support. Took me probably around 10 days to get it sorted last time it happened to me.
The tolerances in the materials I use are 0.1mm, about the width of a razor blade. Many people see that Shapeways can print in metals, so they assume that they could print a razor in one of those; but the tolerances printing in metal at Shapeways is 2mm. Certainly not something you want to trust to hold a razor blade. (This tolerance number comes from both, Shapeways' own material specifications as well as my own testing.)
Some folks are concerned because they hear that nylon does not do well in water. The nylon used at Shapeways is medical grade and you can see from the technical documentation that it's been tested and found to be inert against oil, soap, water - most anything you're going to find in your bathroom. Also, as a reminder, things like toothbrush bristles are made out of nylon; so there are different kinds of nylon out there and some of them are just fine in water. It is possible to melt the nylon, which results in deformation which will ruin the quality of the shave; but you'd have to leave it soaking in >180 deg for quite some time.
There are technologies to use SLS printing with metals. Right now, it's very expensive and Shapeways does not offer that service. When SLS+metal is available at a fair price, I will expand my offerings accordingly. In the meantime, the nylon+aluminium (the grey material) is my recommendation for guys who enjoy the feel of metal. It's quite a bit more expensive than the white nylon, but I prefer to use nylon+aluminium myself.
(2) Cincinnatus RE: 3D printed straight
I considered designing a shavette, but frankly I'm getting pretty good shaves out of my DE designs, so I did not see the need. There has been some interest in a single-edge. I admit I've never used a single-edge, so I'm fairly neutral on that idea. I have a large store of DE blades, and I just don't feel motivated to buy single edge blades and go through the effort to design around a completely different blade than with what I am most familiar.
One of my objectives has been to make good razors inexpensively. I am a hobbyist and make almost no money from my designs posted to Shapeways. Some folks have talked about how 3D printing can be used to inexpensively prototype new designs - and that is correct from most points of view. I have spent far more money on Shapeways prototypes than I've received in returns from sales.
If I were a professional shipping dozens of units at a time, then I might feel more positive about it. :-)Some folks have suggested that 3D printing gives you the ability to customize to your own preferences. While I agree in the theory of this, it's really hard to make that a real thing to customers. Imagine I could print a razor in any one of nine different aggression levels, analogously to an adjustable. It doesn't help a customer to make a choice, because they don't know what the 1 feels like and they don't know what the 9 feels like; so they cannot really make a great decision about what level of aggression will work for them. The old way of simply reading reviews and getting independent. unbiased information still seems to be the best way for customers to get the information they need to make a good decision.
I could make configurable base-plates, like the Rockwell or ATT; and I have seriously been considering that for my next design(s). That seems like a good compromise in giving a customer a gamut of aggressiveness, while also not forcing them to make a decision with incomplete information.
I hope this is helpful and constructive.
Thanks
Member
As cool as the idea is, 3D razor heads usually look like they were dug up from a Roman settlement. A few more years and some finer resolutions will take care of that though.
[Image: BrvPMav.jpg]
[Image: BrvPMav.jpg]
Newbie
fiendishrazor
Shapeways orients the print so as to minimise the streaking artefacts. Typically, these will show on the underside of the base-plate, so the top of the cap and the handle don't show printing artefacts.
If you are concerned at all about these streaks, then the grey nylon+aluminium material is the way to go. One of the several reasons that it is more expensive is that it goes through a polishing pass where ceramic beads are used to sand down any roughness on the surface.
FWIW
Shapeways orients the print so as to minimise the streaking artefacts. Typically, these will show on the underside of the base-plate, so the top of the cap and the handle don't show printing artefacts.
If you are concerned at all about these streaks, then the grey nylon+aluminium material is the way to go. One of the several reasons that it is more expensive is that it goes through a polishing pass where ceramic beads are used to sand down any roughness on the surface.
FWIW
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